How Do I Keep Hope Alive?
Morning friends,
Pray for me. I know many of you do and I deeply appreciate it. I would love to have more time to be still, to ponder some deeper things that God is showing me and somehow I have to carve out the time to do it. I’ve also promised myself that I will get back to regular exercise. Sitting all day has it’s own side effects and studies are now showing that too much sitting is as lethal as smoking cigarettes.
In order to care for the people God has brought to me, I have to put my own oxygen mask on first. That’s not always easy to do, or prioritize but I am learning and I hope you are learning too.
I’m going to be doing a free webinar on February 2 on Depression and what that malady has to do with being in an unhappy or destructive marriage. I hope you can attend. To register, sign up here.
Today’s Question: I read your book, really helpful, especially backing separation up Biblically and the practical parts of waiting to see change. I knew my husband 5 months before we got engaged and got married 5 months later.
That was 6 years ago. I am unhappily married now for about four years. Separated 9 months ago. My husband is a doctor and was a pastor (stepped down last year). He has a temper, verbally is abusive. We have been in counseling since 2012.
Last year, I felt unsafe and prayed and spoke to the counselors and we separated. It is hard as people say just get divorced or you cannot stay separated forever or he might never change, or you are young you can start over, etc. He says I’m deserting him and suggests it is grounds for divorce.
He is very frustrated as he said he thought it would be over now. I am fortunate to have a counselor who supports me in prayer, over email and the phone. She loves God, the Bible and she and her husband worked with us as a couple for a long time so she has seen the truth.
Here is my dilemma. I struggle to keep hope alive as nothing seems to change and my family are concerned for my safety and don’t quite understand why I’m still in this. Please comment on how to keep hope alive if no change is evident.
I know to pray and read the Bible, but am emotionally finding it harder and harder to be positive.
Answer: I’m sure you do struggle to keep hope alive in the face of mounting evidence that your husband is not changing. I also don’t hear anything in your letter that says he is aware he needs to change. As the saying goes, you can’t change something unless you see it needs to change.
Let me ask you a question. Why do you need to keep hope alive? What’s the pressure to stay positive about your marriage or about him? Isn’t it more Biblical to be truthful than to be falsely positive?
Are you hoping that God will miraculously make your husband humble himself and admit his sinful ways so that he can repent?
I don’t know anywhere in Scripture where God forces someone to repent. That is always a person’s choice. Even when God orchestrates painful circumstances like he did for Israel in the Old Testament or Pharaoh when he wanted him to let the Jews leave Egypt, their change was not permanent. It only lasted long enough until the painful consequences subsided.
Also, you mentioned that he’s accusing you of desertion, which he claims is grounds for divorce. It seems like he has no concept of the pain and fear he’s caused you. It appears that he believes that you owe him unconditional devotion as a wife, regardless of how he behaves. Is that true?
But you are not alone. I often see a lot of confusion among women in destructive marriages because they continue to cling to the hope that their spouse will change, even when it’s time to let go of that hope.
Protesting, they usually say something like, “I know God’s will is for our marriage to be restored. He can change my spouse and God hates divorce. So I will wait, and pray and believe and hope that my spouse will change someday.”
Then they wait and wait and wait. That’s where you are at now. And after waiting and hoping and seeing no evidence of any change, they begin to ask, “If I give up hope, does that mean I don’t trust God?”
It sounds to me that you are afraid of that too. You fear that if you let go of hope, you are giving up. That’s not true.
Giving up means you don’t trust what God is doing. Letting go and surrendering to God means “Not my will but yours be done.” Jesus showed us this in the garden when he didn’t feel like going to the cross, it was painful, yet he trusted his Father and surrendered.
There are times we do need to let go of our own desired outcome (such as a repentant spouse/ restored marriage) by surrendering it to God. Jesus let go of the rich young ruler. The young man didn’t want to do things God’s way and Christ let him go, even though he loved him (Mark 10:21).
Jesus let Judas go, even knowing that he was up to no good. The story of the prodigal son in Luke 15:11 shows a loving father, letting his younger son go to live a sinful life. He didn’t beg him to stay or cling to him when the son wanted to leave. He let him go.
Perhaps what you need to let go of is your hope in what God will do in your husband. Henry Cloud has a chapter in his book Necessary Endings called Hoping Versus Wishing: The Difference Between What’s Worth Fixing and What Should End.
Briefly, here are a few questions Cloud uses to discern whether someone should have hope or let go of hope.
Do I want the same reality, frustration, or problems six months from now?
Do I want this same level of performance a year from now?
Do I want to be having these same conversations two years from now?
If the answer is no, then here are a few more of Cloud’s questions.
What reason is there to have hope that tomorrow is going to be different? (The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior)
What in this picture is changing that I can believe in?
Cloud says, “The difference between hoping and wishing is that hope comes from real, objective reasons that the future is going to be different from the past. Anything other than that is simply a wish that comes from your desires.”[1]
God calls his people to put their hope in him, not necessarily in what he will do, or what we think he should do. Elijah is a good example of a godly man with misplaced hope. He believed it was God’s will for King Ahab and Jezebel to repent and he was right. It was God’s perfect will, but that’s not what happened.
Elijah became so despondent at his “failure” that he wanted to give up. In his small story of hoping what God would do, he forgot who God was and God’s larger story. God was still present. God was still good. God was still in control and God showed Elijah that his hope needed to be placed firmly in who God was, not what Elijah hoped he would do (1 Kings 18,19).
I don’t think Jesus hoped that Judas would change. He lived in truth and reality and knew he would not change (John 13:27).
I don’t think Abigail hoped that Nabal would change. She knew who her husband was and lived in that truth to protect her family from David’s outrage at Nabal’s foolishness (1 Samuel 25).
I don’t think that David hoped Saul would change after repeated lies and false promises. David knew that Saul was out to kill him despite promising change (1 Samuel 24,26).
Each of them lived in reality and truth, not in wishful thinking or false hope.
Proverbs remind us, “Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a dream fulfilled is a tree of life” (Proverbs 13:12). In other words, when you hope and hope and hope and your hope is continually dashed, it makes you sick inside. It sounds like that’s where you are at right now. But if what you hope for is showing some movement, then your hope grows and flourishes into a tree of life (nourishing and alive).
The first component of CORE strength is to live in truth and to stop pretending. I don’t have hope that God will enable me to fly if I jump out of the window. Could God perform a miracle and enable me to fly? Yes, he could, but will he defy his own laws of gravity? He might, but it’s not something I am going to hope for or test. That would not be living in the truth of what I know and how God acts.
In the same way, there is no evidence in Scripture that God changes people without their consent and cooperation. Therefore to hope that he will, is not living wisely (Click To Tweet).
But to hope that God will work in you through the painful process of letting go is living in truth. From that place you can regain your energy and stay positive for God promises. He will cause all things to work together for OUR GOOD, which is to be conformed to the likeness of Christ (Romans 8:28,29), and we can hope in that truth.
Friend: What helped you to let go of hope without giving up that God was still good and still at work, even if the outcome didn’t turn out the way you wanted it to?
[1] Necessary Endings, page 97
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“Friend: What helped you to let go of hope without giving up that God was still good and still at work, even if the outcome didn’t turn out the way you wanted it to?”
Similar to the old joke about the person hanging on a cliff edge crying to God for help, afraid to trust the message to let go because s/he cannot see the strong platform an inch past his or her feet — what helps me to let go by having faith that I will survive whatever’s next.
I find that letting go of the outcome in my prayers allows for a powerful and meditative experience to explore how to ask for what I want in ways that is not a demand to give me what I want.
For example: When two of my children were teens, they did not return from an outing at the expected time. It was tempting to pray for their safe return. But the contemplative prayer also led to praying for the family’s resilience, forgiveness, grace, peace, regardless of the outcome.
Sometimes I wonder if I’m doing a dis-service when someone asks for prayers that their desired outcome is met. There’s nothing wrong, in my opinion, in asking God to save the life of a loved one, but that’s a set-up for future pain. Why not build out the prayer to include all the human elements of the situation: For love, for peace, for acceptance, for relationships, etc.
Lastly, it seems to me that praying for a specific outcome is like treating God as one’s personal prayer genie. What happens when we realize that good luck charms don’t work? We throw them away.
Summary: The key for me is to focus on God’s will instead of mine and to consciously shift my thoughts to accepting the unknown — because God’s there regardless.
Well said, Ann. We can’t always know what the will of God is; He’s the One who has the big picture. But when we pray for Him to have His way, for peace to reign, even to pray according to Paul’s prayers in Ephesians, then we know we are aligned with His will no matter how things turn out.
Yes!!
This hope you speak of and this place is exactly where I am. I too have been separated for over a year waiting for the actions that look like true repentance. The truth is I haven’t seen consistent movement towards a changed life. It hurts. Thank you writing and Leslie for sharing. I need to see where my CORE is not in truth.
Hi Leslie, I don’t ever let go of hope. But God changes the object of my hope to be more and more hope in Him and less and less hope in my circumstance(husband). To fix my eyes on Him so that the reality of my circumstance can take its proper place in my life instead of overshadowing everything else. Now of course, marriage is HUGE and so it can’t be entirely ignored.
So then the questions becomes, once hope is either released as you suggest or transferred to the Lord what comes next? It is clearly Biblical that love is “long-suffering,” “endures all things,” and so on. Therefore, even when there is not hope in change by the husband, I do not believe divorce (or even separation because can that go on for 20 years?) would be Biblical. How to live in such a marriage and glorify the Lord? Here is where wisdom and dependence upon the Lord is even more critical. But God can & will do amazing work in the women even as she lives, potentially the rest of her life, with an unrepentant husband. Remember Joseph, where God “made (him) fruitful in the land of (his) suffering.” God has a calling on this woman’s life: She can minister to her children or to woman in her church; she can gain skill in negotiating life with her husband when relationship doesn’t really exist; she may forge relationships with other Godly women to meet some of her unmet emotional/spiritual needs, she can still have joy in the Lord…. That is not at all an easy road, there will be much pain, and many mistakes made, but it shows hope that the Lord can give her a beautiful life for Him even in this awful situation.
Don’t forget safety, though! An unrepentant, abusive husband is dangerous to wife and children and physical movement out of the house might mean the difference between life and death.
Too true! No healthy minded person would stand in the middle of the highway waitching a truck coming full on high speed. Abuse damages the mind resulting in responses that are detrimental like staying in a toxic relationship while damage continues. Help may be required to get of the highway!
I respectfully disagree. I gather you’re from the ‘divorce is only granted for adultery’ camp.
God designed marriage to be a lifelong covenant but abuse wasn’t supposed to be part of the deal.
God designed parenting as a safe place for children to grow up but when there’s abuse, the state steps in and removes the kids from the home. Shoot, if I start kicking my dog in the front yard someone will call the ASPCA on me.
But we tell a sister in Christ: “Just endure”.
What about her children!? Their minds are going to be screwed up. They’re going to have BIG resentment issues with the church bc the church wouldn’t help them.
Love endures all things. God is Love.
God endures all things, but even He eventually cuts ties with someone who doesn’t Love Him back.
If your neighbor kicked you in the knee everytime you walked over to say hello, how long would it take before you decided that situation was toxic and started staying off their yard.
A terrible marriage doesn’t glorify God. It’s not like the story of Joseph. These women are not coming out better. They’re coming out CRUSHED. Now, not every non-believing husband is abusive. Some are decent, hard-working men. In that case, she would probably not get a Holy Ghost green light on divorce. But the man described in the blog sounded abusive. I consider abuse as his breaking of marriage vows.
Please, let’s no start whacking the original poster over the head with condemnation over her ‘Biblical right’ to divorce.
My response was to Mineral.
My take on this, Ruth, (besides that I agree with you) is that it’s usually the men who push for ‘submission’ and ‘God hates divorce’. Because they are afraid. They fear our strength, they fear we might leave, they fear that they actually have to put some effort into this relationship thing. If we were loved as Christ loves the church, we wouldn’t even have this blog. If they can hold the “God hates divorce” over our heads, then we are prisoners and they don’t have to work at being godly husbands.
And the reason that pastors like to cling to that belief is because it’s so so much easier to walk by on the other side of the road than to help the beaten one, and if you can blame her and guilt her and spiritualise her suffering, well then we have the problem solved, don’t we? Women have been ‘given the privilege’ (tongue in cheek) of being the scapegoats for men’s sins since the very beginning. Makes me think that maybe God can really use us, if the enemy is so hell-bent to destroy us.
So true, Connie!! Well said!
Thank you, Leslie! You bring more and more clarity when our heads get muddled with bad theology, and wrong thinking. Thank you for helping us face and deal with truth and reality.
Thank you, Leslie! You bring more and more clarity when our heads get muddled with bad theology, and wrong thinking. Thank you for helping us face and deal with truth and reality.
Mineral, another thing to remember is that Joseph was kidnapped and held against his will, and then imprisoned and held against his will. He allowed circumstances beyond his control to make him wiser and better. I’m quite sure if Joseph could have said, “Hey; I’m leaving!” he would have.
A woman chooses to marry of her own free will, believing that her husband means and intends to keep his promises. If instead of loving and cherishing her, he uses and abuses her, he is flagrantly breaking his covenant with her and with God. I agree with Leslie that a divorce would simply be a public recognition of what is already true.
Wow Ruth and Connie! Well said! THANK YOU!!!
It is convenient for those who state “God hates divorce” to use it as a reason for keeping people entrapped in abusive relationships. Why does God hate divorce? I believe this is because it stems from factors like pride, deceit, manipulation etc
Proverbs 6:16-19King James Version (KJV)
16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Wanuola,
I LOVE how you clarified the REASON God hates divorce:
“It is convenient for those who state “God hates divorce” to use it as a reason for keeping people entrapped in abusive relationships. Why does God hate divorce? I believe this is because it stems from factors like pride, deceit, manipulation etc
Proverbs 6:16-19King James Version (KJV)
16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.”
Thank you for this!
Another thought as I read your post is that these “characteristics” are cultivated and flourish easily in a marriage covenant that is only kept for the sake of a piece of paper.
The reason God hates divorce is because it is a heart issue of enmity stemming from the characteristics you so clearly exposed.
Man looks on the outside, while God looks on the heart(s).
These characteristics: pride, deceit, manipulation (and I will add a few also), power, control, exploiting the other for self nourishment, humiliating, etc. etc.
are all opposite aspects of love.
The Christian marriage is supposed to be an example and a light to the world of Christ Love for His bride.
No wonder the enemy would seek at every turn to cause it’s deformity. He has succeeded in a LARGE way from what I have seen.
How are you doing now? Did you say you are newly separated? Thought I saw you mention having children also. How are they and may I ask how many/ages?
Mine are all but grown now with the exception of 1 who is 15. I have 4 children.
Praying for you and your faith in Gods provision.
Ruth, I couldn’t agree more!!!!!!! Thank you for sharing these thoughts.
Ruth,
Love your clarity and scriptural application: “Love endures all things. God is Love.
God endures all things, but even He eventually cuts ties with someone who doesn’t Love Him back.”
Yes. Exactly! God perfectly examples separation from the unrepentant sinner. The prodigal son story comes to mind. Where was the Father in the story? Being dragged through the painful choices of his sons unrepentant lifestyle, or on the hill waiting and praying, longing for his sons return? He was separated from his son because of his sons sinful and self centered choices. His son needed to experience the consequences of his choices in order to remember the Perfect Love his Father had for him.Without the wisdom of the Father to stay on the hill and allow his son to follow his plans to sin….we do not imagine it to end well for the son. Where would he return if the Father had left the hill?
I am reminded now also, that when the son returned, he was quite a different man than when he had left. He was broken, and considered fellowship with the Father a privilege he could only hope would still be offered to him. How sweet that reunion was and how amazed (instead of entitled) the prodigal must have felt in the offering of his Fathers love for him upon his return (repentence) to Him. This story shows us how it can be seen when one has rent his heart and not merely his garment. It will be obvious when that is the case. Until then, how are we to behave in a different manner than our Father has exampled to us?
Mineral, I would agree with everything you said in an unhappy marriage or a disappointing marriage or a difficult marriage but not in an abusive or destructive marriage. There is no glorifying God in enabling sin to flourish, sins of oppression and abuse. God does not ask a woman to be oppressed or abused in her marriage for his glory, he asks her to love her spouse enough to speak the truth in love, to admonish the unruly, to let him sow what he has reaped by calling the authorities, and asking for protection and help from the authorities and the church. To stay silent and suffer for someone to continue to oppress is some women’s reality, especially depending on the culture she lives in, but I don’t think it is the only way to be a godly women in an oppressive, ungodly and destructive marriage. And I think we need to be very careful not to put an additional heavy burden on a woman’s already sagging shoulders.
AMEN Leslie! This is a keeper! Thanks!
Thanks Leslie, Even in cultures where abuse is seemingly the norm and women seem to be coping well, behind the scenes talking to the women one on one they are desperate for liberty from the bondage of control, intimidation and manipulation with a frustration of unfulfilled and suppressed living.
Culture indeed as not infrequently made null the word of God that upholds live,
You so right. When I spoke in IRAQ I was asked about how to help women who felt they had no option but to set themselves on fire to die and escape and abusive marriage. It broke my heart.
How horrible for these women in Iraq! I think some Christian women feel the same way, I just read Necessary Endings last week, and it is excellent. What woke me up was my sister listening to me break my silence, and say to me in love and truth: “Your husband’s heart is not for you, but against you.” When he began divorce proceedings and swiftly cut off credit cards, phone service and drain the bank accounts, I woke up to the fact there was no sense in false hope and I had to get myself safe. Four years later, and it was the best thing possible to be divorced from a man who was in his heart an enemy. Your example of Judas is spot on. He fooled all the disciples, heard all Jesus’ words, and yet betrayed Jesus. The truth will set you free, if you receive it.
I would like to hear Leslie Vernick’s comments on your post Mineral, as this is where the battle lies – we either live this way as Mineral describes, or separate? Is it loving of me to allow no consequences to fall on my husband who lives in sin?
Mineral,
Oh my respectfully here are my thoughts but my sadness for what you have been exposed to or unexposed to relate to here.
I’m quite in disagreement with your belief structure in you above comments.
Especially this one:
“It is clearly Biblical that love is “long-suffering,” “endures all things,” and so on”
We are called to do and love ‘to glorify God’ and any suffering will come from doing His will, not a person’s comfortable approval. Nor will that come from hiding a person or especially a husband’s sin from himself or others. That’s called peacekeeping and adds to ones own denial.
Of course when there is a married couple and they are not both believing spouses this can cause different roads to take.
But a professing Christ believing spouse is more accountable biblically speaking to mutually submit to one another.
Your theological arguments here based on your beliefs could be dangerous and sound like the idol of a marriage image is more valuable than two people becoming one flesh with Christ at the center.
My question for you is how do you define Love?
How do you define suffering for Good, His will and not just ‘plain suffering’? How do you know your living out your purpose for His will?
To me, loving some someone well entails this: Choosing the highest good for the other person!
When I love someone (like my husband) from my own fear, insecurity or place of denial.. im really not offering them love.
Thus, they are getting a counterfeit and I am not representing an authentic Christian love.
Prayers for your journey
I agree. Thank you.
Love what you say about the “highest good”. A mother’s love for her child consents to amputation of her child’s gangrenous limb for love of the child else the rotten limb soon results in the child’s whole system shutting down. True love is radical in the best interest of the object of its love..
Mineral,
Thank you for being a courageous woman.
In a world in which far too many people are willing to say “yea…but…” to biblical truth you are willing to put your trust in God and His word. I’m afraid that your example of obedience is likely to generate a fair amount of criticism but I hope you know that there are those, like myself, who applaud you for your strength and courage.
You are an example of radical obedience for others to follow.
James, I think we have to be careful here. You imply that the only women of radical obedience are the ones that think like you do. Sometimes radical obedience might look one way – and other times it might look like another. Please do not judge these women. You are welcome to your thoughts, your input, your comments, but when you start to sound like you are judging, I will jump in here because it’s uncalled for.
Leslie,
Thank you for your comment.
I absolutely didn’t mean to imply that only women of radical obedience are the ones who think like I do.
I saw mineral’s dedication to her vows and thought she needed a word of encouragement. She holds her commitment to biblical truth in high esteem, I think that’s laudable.
Perhaps you can be more specific about where you think I was judging but I feel like you have put words in my mouth and then rebuked me for them.
Her commitment is admirable but misguided. She is suffering all the consequences for her husband’s behavior and he’s not in the least having any discomfort. This is so wrong on every level. Even God doesn’t operate like this. He allows us to make our choices but we still have the consequences on our head. For instance, we may pray for our financial status to change, but if we refuse to change our spending habits or get a better job or whatever the issue may be, God will not automatically dump a load of money in our lap anyway. He will, however, guide us to better spending habits, a budgeting plan, or whatever is needed. The key is RESPONSIBILITY. Mineral is taking ALL responsibility and her husband none. She’s not being a helpmeet, nor is she honoring her husband or her children or herself.
Sometimes radical obedience means to be like Naomi and go to the land of the unknown. It might mean being willing to sacrifice your financial stability, your home, your friends, your church and everything that is of earthly value in order to be obedient to God who says that it’s time for the law of sowing and reaping to be implemented for the unrepentant spouse.
I’m not sure where the idea comes from that it is somehow easier to leave a destructive situation then to stay. The destructive person ensures consequences for leaving as well as staying.
Scripture says to obey is better than sacrifice. The Old Testament speaks of those who sacrificed their children to the false god Molech. Some might have called them dedicated followers. Jesus calls us to crucify ourselves daily for his sake, not for the sake of someone else. He also tells us that his burden is light. That doesn’t mean it’s easy but he does not call us to deny the person that he made us to be so that we can be the false image someone else wants us to be. That is a life of servitude to man, not God.
“If you can gain your freedom, do so…”
This is God’s heart for all who are oppressed.
We (Americans) are blessed to live in a time and age and culture where slavery is no longer legal and women now have the right to “gain their freedom” from oppressive and abusive marriages.
The more you get to know the heart of the Father, the more you will see how these two issues are the same and what God’s desire is for His children who are in these situations. It is not to “stay and endure” at all costs (although God does give instruction to those who don’t have the option or cultural right to gain their freedom).
Proverbs 14:31- Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him. Learn to do good, seek Justice and correct oppression.Isaiah 1:17 Psalm 72:4 May he defend the cause of the poor , give deliverance to the children of the needy and crush the oppressor. Psalm 119:134 Redeem me from Mans’s Oppression, that I may keep your precepts.
an Abusive marriage, is an Oppressive Marriage and counselors and Pastors need to understand how to deal with the Oppressor as Husband and the Oppressed as the Spouse. It is biblical to deal with this in a marriage, because it does not Please God that a woman goes Oppressed for an indefinite amount of time.
alie,
Thank you for providing scriptural resources here that speak to the heart of the issue.
Copying and pasting to a file I have now called “CORE Scriptures”
Your thoughts shared are so clear and helpful. Thank you.
Hi Lori, thank you for your kind words of encouragement posted today.
My children are aged 15, 13 and 9years.
I knew I had to be at peace with my final decision and finally knew with the comfort from God’s word that I needed to walk in the liberty Christ secured for me, not being seen to and shackled on the inside! Control and manipulation
stemming from cultural beliefs have been the whip for years rationalised by there not being any physical abuse. Outbursts of anger were terrifying……with fears of being an inch away from what next? I gave into decisions that resulted in losses being incurred, with rationales that I did not understand/ for peace sake! I realised my life was being spent, every day draws us nearer to the end. My accountability is to my first love, no one else should take that place! Our values became more apparent to be different, achievement and imagined perception of others seemed to overrule suggestion for meaningful living,,.We attend separate churches, as he is focused on the one which upholds religion above the word, emphasizing the letter and not the Spirit of the word. I was given titles”rebellious wife”, “Jezebel spirit”….
I am now at peace in God’s love regarding that decision. That puzzles many, waiting for the paperwork to be processed. Thankful for the truth shared in this forum.
Mineral
Oh dear oh dear oh dear. I agree some divorce over spilt milk, I don’t agree a marriage should be kept at all cost. That’s naive thinking. Years ago I was in an abusive relationship – my son’s father physically, mentally and sexually assaulted me, but I was ‘that’ Christian who believed God loves a nuclear family so it was my duty to stay. One day the man looked at our son with ‘that’ look and I knew.. it was only a matter of time before my son was due for his first punch in the head. My son only a year and a half then. So I decided to leave, I didn’t get away with a free pass – we argued and fought, the man stabbed me and had planned to take me to ‘our’ special place by water and watch me bleed out.. BUT GOD had other ideas. 15yrs later I am now a married woman to another man, with 2 girls to him. We’re a Christian family and overall life is very good to us. God delivered me from a very great hell and blessed me with beauty for ashes. God is not warped regarding love. He requires commitment not to be mistaken for oppression.
As always, Leslie, your thoughts on this matter are very helpful, and your insight into the various biblical examples is enlightening. For me, I think it all boils down to surrender to God’s will. We only think we know what God’s will is. It was hard for me to believe that God would allow my daughter to become pregnant while in college. It was hard for me to believe that He would allow my son to be murdered. While I don’t have the marital problems that are addressed in this blog, I do have plenty of other life experiences that have tested my faith and my hope in God. He is faithful to always act in our best interest, whether it looks like it or not. Sometimes it is only in retrospect that we can see His wisdom in allowing certain things to happen. Meanwhile, we journey on, trusting in the only One who is trustworthy. To release our children, our spouses, our marriages into His care is the way to find peace. The peace that passes understanding.
This is me! Your reply spoke to my spirit and reaffirmed I was not to go back to my husband. I was wishing, afraid to go back, afraid to not go back. I was afraid of disappointing God, for not trying harder or being more understanding. I deserted him, his counter claim for divorce. He is being ugly and cruel after 10 months apart. He never once asked why I left or what he might have done to cause me to leave with just my clothes. I answered no to all the questions. I was not hoping. My hope now is in God and my relationship with him first. He is my truth. Thank you so much Leslie, I feel more peace and validation in staying this course. I would of been dead in 2 years.
Leslie, your article topic choice was timely and excellent.
You’re right. The original poster doesn’t necessarily need to keep hope alive for her marriage; her hope for a good life is in knowing Jesus.
God doesn’t promise redeemed marriages for everyone. God doesn’t force salvation on a hard-hearted husband or on our prodigal-children according to our desperate timelines. God honors our freedom to choose Him. God DOES promise that you’ll find Him when you seek Him with all your heart.
God also promises that you’ll have perfect peace if you keep you heart and mind stayed on Him bc you trust in Him.
Here’s a good one Ps. 34.18 The LORD is close to the brokenhearted; he rescues those whose spirits are crushed.
In my spirit, I feel like God wants to wait and do this salvation work when we’ve stopped being so desperate about it. Compassionate, good.🙂
Desperate,not so good.😳
The original poster has to get the mindset: “Though None go with me still I with follow. No Turning back. Turning back.”
One big big red flag I see in today’s question, is that he seems to be angry that she has not filed for divorce. So why doesn’t he file? Because he wants to blame it on her……again. Poor me, she deserted me. Crocodile tears. Batting his baby blues, “I’m innocent”. Think how he can hold his head up and shame her in the community and family. Just ask how I know……..though my x did file, he still turned it on me like that. “I have no idea why she left me. Probably she just didn’t feel like being married anymore.” And people fall for that!!!! I think divorce is worse than death. Nobody brought me casseroles!! 🙂 Seriously, it never ends, really.
So many abusers play the charming victim rather than own their behaviour. Yes, the lack of casseroles hurts, as the end of the marriage is a type of “death” and you need this kind of care while you grieve. Tragically so many women get abandonment from those they need the most and they get judgement for taking the brave steps they need to take.
I through myself on to God and realised that even when a destructive spouse physically stays in the home, if they persistently break their vows, and do not show repentence and change; they have abandoned you (EVEN if they physically hang around).
This is not a marriage it is abandonment.
It sounds like the original posters husband abandoned her and his vows and wants to blame shift.
The divorce always precedes the paper work / filing. The relationship having broken down already results in the paperwork! Many are already divorced practically but paperwork not done.
Wonuola,
Have been going back over some older posts and see this one of yours:
“The divorce always precedes the paper work / filing. The relationship having broken down already results in the paperwork! Many are already divorced practically but paperwork not done.”
After responding to your last post about why God hates divorce, I can see this truth you share also.
Why does God hate divorce? Because divorce happens in the secret places of the heart where pride, haughtiness, selfishness and deceit have been fostered and have effectively murdered the marriage.
I agree with you.
Divorce has already taken place in the hearts of many marriages. Most Christians in this condition seem to learn to fake it and hide the fact that a death has occurred, and God hates this deceit behind the legal document of marriage.
The word says that God hates DIVORCE, not the legal paper that claims marriage.
This seems to be a more and more common tactic among abusing, controlling men. They will not “live contentedly” with their wives (particularly Christian wives who have it pounded into them to not divorce), but refuse to divorce them until they drive her to file and then blame her. Or they hold her hostage as she feels she isn’t allowed to divorce.
So true Libl for many of these patterns.
What is usually beneath the surface IS an actual divorce..
Divorce by one spouse in their mind, then divorce in their body and their soul.
Having a legal marital status doesn’t equal having a God centered marriage that can thrive.
They want all the biblical arguments against divorce, but they won’t implement the biblical arguments for having a biblical marriage!
Again… they write their own rules, comforts and Jesus.
Lord let us stay aligned to your Word!
Libl,
You said:
“This seems to be a more and more common tactic among abusing, controlling men. They will not “live contentedly” with their wives (particularly Christian wives who have it pounded into them to not divorce), but refuse to divorce them until they drive her to file and then blame her. Or they hold her hostage as she feels she isn’t allowed to divorce.”
Yes. This is exactly how I would describe my “marriage” of 30 years.
There is the Godly idea that marriage is for life.
Then there is the ungodly licensing and liberties mankind takes to bank on that piece of paper and never have to tend to or nurture the marriage or let it change our hearts by rooting out the sinful practices we might be engaged in that kill it.
I don’t have to listen very hard to hear the key turning on the door of my prison cell called marriage some 30 years ago.
To have people tell such ones that there is no hope for them to ever be free from such bondage and torment as a destructive marriage is to sentence them to death. If not physical, certainly emotional and perhaps spiritual.
I have seen this happen in many precious loved ones and friends.
All in the name of keeping the paperwork in tact. It’s a travesty!
Connie;)
I am laughing 😂..
Because it is so predictable in ways right.
The cluelessness works for a bit… then they try how mentally ill a person is..
Thankfully we know WHO sees all and eventually they have to give an account regardless if they are saved or unsaved.
Bless you … id bring you your favorite dish if I could!
Leslie, your post is so timely! I have been struggling with this same question the past couple of weeks, trying to find the balance between living in reality and holding on to hope.
For the sake of my children, I feel that God has called me to stay in a destructive marriage where I have more influence over them, rather than abandoning their welfare to the vagaries of a court system that would have split custody between me and their father. My choice has strained relationships with friends and family: One group is concerned about my safety and well-being and accuses me for not looking out for myself. Another group berates me for not fully re-engaging with my husband emotionally, physically, or financially. Even our counselor claims that I am setting us up for failure if I do not let my guard down. I would love to let my guard down, but I feel that is an ideal set aside for normal, healthy relationships and to do so in my marriage would be foolish. I have seen no meaningful change or even acknowledgement of the damage my husband has caused, and I have no desire to make myself vulnerable again until I feel it is safe to do so.
In the meantime, am open to the possibility that my husband may change, but I have come to see that unfulfilled hope only increases the tension in our relationship. Every time I try to make up for his failures with kindness and respect and he still responds in a selfish, immature way, my anger bubbles back to the surface. Why can’t he see that he is biting the hand that feeds him? How can I continue to live right when he treats me so wrong?
The answer is by re-directing my hope: I hope for a husband who loves and respects me. I hope for a spouse who sets his desires aside to meet the needs of his wife and family. I hope for a partner in life who helps me reach my dreams as much as I help him. Those hopes may be normal and reasonable, but they are not being met by my earthly husband. Will they ever be? Maybe. But I am not going to set my heart on it. Instead, I am going to live in the reality of who my husband is now and set my hopes in my spiritual husband. A husband who will provide a future and a hope for me and my children that is better than what I see now. Who can work all things together for our good, even if they are not good in the moment. Who I know beyond a shadow of a doubt is deeply and passionately in love with me and will never abandon me.
That is not just a hope, but a promise from my God. I can live with that.
J.B., I’m really sorry that you are getting criticized for your considered, careful choices instead of supported in them. I think both sides probably think they have your best interest in mind. But each of us must walk out our stories before our “audience of one,” who loves us and gives grace for each day. We answer to Him. I pray that you will be able to walk in dignity and CORE strength as you attempt to live with your unrepentant husband. I pray you can remain as impolite dad possible. May the Lord direct you, strengthen you, and keep you open to His voice every step of your way.
Thanks T.L. for your gracious response. Yes we must all live before an “audience of one” and although we may disagree on what that looks like, let’s please, please, give each other the benefit of the doubt that the goal is to honor and glorify God.
After my emotionally, mentally and sexually abusive husband of 20 years stopped paying the mortgage, we lost our beautiful home. My two teenage children are just devastated, as I am. I I decided thats enough. I moved separately into a new home and he got an apt. I had already filed for divorce a year earlier, but kept stalling it because i was afraid to pursue it. i kept hoping he wd change. Hoping being served with divorce papers wd wake him up. it never happened. He became angry, bitter, nasty and continues to blame me. He takes absolutely no responsibility for his actions. No remorse, no repentenance whatsoever. we began christian marriage counseling six months ago. the sessions are explosive, a screaming match for two hours, with the counselor playing referee. My husband lies, avoids, manipulates, and everyone believes him. Of course, he is highly decorated detective. Calm, cool and collected. I am the emotional, unstable wife, who talks too much. I ended up storming out of the last session because of the bias in that office. This counselor refuses to hold my husband accountable for his words and actions. I called him today and told him I am not going back to counseling. It is fruitless and only making things worse. There is no change at all in this man. The marital relationship is completed broken, it has been for the past five years, including no intimacy. Yet that is all my husband wants is sex. And if he cant get it, he wants some type of affection. I told him I cannot do it. He is a very controlling man. He manipulates and intimidates me. He uses fear to control me. He calls me names and embarrasses me. He disrespects me. He mocks me. I feel so foolish and devalued. And NOBODY believes he really does this things. I am so worn out trying to prove to people that its not my imagination. His words hurt me so deeply. He has no idea and frankly does not care. Its all about him. He is completely indifferent. Having said all that, I must now make a decision, do i want to pursue a legal seperation or divorce? The judge says I cannot stall any longer. I am tormented. I have searched the scriptures for wisdom. I do not want to grieve the holy spirit, or disobey God, or bring terrible consequences on myself if I divorce him. Gods word is clear…the only acceptable justification is infidelity. Now what? Im bound to this marriage until he is unfaithful to me, and in the interim, I continue hoping one day god will convict him and he will repent? He says he wants the seperation, not divorce. Of course, that is his way of still maintaining what little bit of control he has left. The christian pastor/marriage counselor told me directly: “YOU HAVE NO OUT! WITHOUT INFIDELITY, YOU DO NOT HAVE BIBLICAL GROUNDS FOR DIVORCE AND IF YOU DIVORCE HIM, YOUR LIFE WILL BE HELL. YOU ARE BOUND TO THIS MAN FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE”. I had never felt more hopeless in my entire life. But God, you see how he treats me. I am sick emotionally, mentally and physically (with IBS flare ups from so much strife) how could you demand that I must stay? But Jesus says, if you love me, you will obey my commands. that is to stay in the marriage and honor the convenant I made. I have to give this lawyer an answer. Does anyone have any words of advice for me? thank you all so much for listening and allowing me to tell my story. I feel so alone. Like no one understands and I have no one to turn to.
Rose, not all counsellors are the same. Not all pastors make good counsellors. Find someone to help you, because irregardless of what happens to your marriage, you will need help for you. It’s hard to make decisions when you are feeling crazy (even though your not). Pursue a Christian counsellor to help you. Do what it takes ….for your own health.
Also remember this….”A bruised reed he will not break”. That’s our God and He knows your hearts desire.
Yes on both, Cindy! Rose, you need a counselor who understands the dynamics of abusive and destructive marriages.
T.L.
do you or any one of you dear friends know how i can go about finding a counselor who deals with abusive, destructive marriages? I have searched online, but they all say they deal with relationships and divorce, but none of them specify destructive and abusive relationships. There arent many christian counselors who take insurance. Therefore, many of them are out of pocket and quite costly. My only option is probably a secular counselor.
Rose,
I’m not sure if anyone responded to you but I believe you and I understand! I do not believe that God insists on his daughters taking that kind of abuse. To say only adultery is a cause for divorce would keep many women in abusive marriages and just can’t be right! You are of worth and a beloved daughter of God.
See Leslie’s post “Is it Biblical to implement negative consequences” and know you are NOT alone. Also LDS.org has many uplifting articles and messages on marriage, women and family issues. Listening and reading them have given me a better understanding of God’s love for his daughters.
Rose,
I believe you!
From your painful story and such loss it seems like you don’t ‘have a covenant marriage.
Sounds like he might have infidelity issues in other ways?
Can you Ladies TL, Lori, Connie.. give godly wisdom;)
Leslie V. ?
Rose, your marriage and situation sounds a lot like mine. Everything you said about your husband – was true of mine. I can share my story as to how I got where I am today, free from abuse. I went to personal counseling with someone who understood abuse well. I counseled with her for 3 years before I made a decision to divorce. I still remember her words, we have to get you out of there so u can begin healing. My husband had his own counselor but only talked about finances. His counselor contacted mine and said why is she still there?? I gave my husband plenty of opportunities to seek for help, over the 30 yrs we were married. I was fortunate to have excellent counseling that saw the trauma I was living in. She explained to me (unlike the church) that my husband had broken the marriage covenant. And I was free to leave. My husband had no acknowledgement of his abuse, nor a desire to turn away. I filed for divorce because I had no signs he would do anything different. I have been divorced now for 16 months and God has restored my life to one of healthyness, and has given me abundant provision for all my needs. I do not agree with your counselor trying to hold you in an Destructive marriage. I am still in counseling and growing and walking into a life that is abuse free.
God never intended for me to live in the trauma I was. He was pleased to set me free.
Thank you for the encouraging words, Robin. This: “My husband had no acknowledgement of his abuse, nor a desire to turn away” is the rock I hold on to when I start to doubt my decision. I’m still dragging my feet on moving forward with the divorce, and reminding myself that he had left the marriage long before I recognized it.
It’s weird. I have hope, I guess, or maybe it’s just a wish, and I’m not thrilled about divorce as the outcome. And mixed all in through that is excitement that I don’t have to live with lies anymore. I feel as tumbled as a pair of socks in the middle of the wash cycle.
On the bright side, the next phases are rinse and spin. I can do this!
Robin,
You wrote: “God never intended for me to live in the trauma I was. He was pleased to set me free.”
Love this! What a loving God we have.
Thank you for sharing this and your experience. It is encouraging to see how God has provided for you and how you were set free.
Amen, Robin! God’s heart, I’m sure, would have been for your husband’s repentance and the sanctity and wholeness of the marriage. But his disdain for you, his Maker, and the covenant led to the dissolution of it. The responsibility for that falls upon his head.
Robin,
THank you for sharing your story with me. It is a comfort to know that other women do understand and believe me. Im NOT losing my sanity, Im NOT a “kook”. Its not my mindset or me trying to justify a divorce..all things my husband says to me. No, these things ARE really happening. Its not right that I have to pay sexually when I buy something at the store, or when I need him to do a task around the house, or to be spoken to only when he says I “must be a good wife” and satisfy him sexually. Im forced to do things and say things I dont want to, but then Im told “stop it, youre my wife, dont you want to please your husband?”. but he ignores me and my feelings and what I desperately crave from him (a partner I can talk to and feel safe with, someone I can trust and be vulnerable with, that wont hurt me, someone who loves me for ME, as a person, not what I can give them sexually, a person who values me and respects me and treats me kindness, compassion and shows patience when he doesnt get his way). I am so exhausted of having this same conversation with him over and over for years. Ive also written letters to help him understand my heart. I am ashamed to admit, I have even begged him…pls be nice to me. Im sorry…Im rambling too much. thank you for listening.
Robin,
I wish I were as strong as you are. But sadly, the truth is, I have been co-dependent on my husband during our 20 yr marriage. I am so scared to be alone and have to do everything myself. I wonder everyday…how can I make it on my own? The fear paralyzes me and I get such scary panic attacks. This makes me justify staying in my marriage (although seperated for two mths now) this terrible terrible fear of being alone. I do not know how to do many things, like home repairs, and maintaining the car, etc. I have paid a lot of money to have people do this for me, hoping they are not scamming me because they see I dont know any better. My two children are in college and soon they will be on their own. Then I will be left totally alone. This scares me to death. I cant bear the lonliness and the thought of growing old without a companion to walk with. I think, what if I get sick…who will help me? Im sorry Im rambling..Im just so scared and saddened..I cry as I write this….of being left alone. So I minimize the abuse and tell myself, its not that bad. Ive dealt with it for so many years…this helps me to hold on to this empty shell of a marriage I have left. I know this thinking is all wrong. wish i were stronger.
Jesus will help you. He will be your companion.
Dear Robin,
How did you find a counselor who deals with abusive relationships? I have looked on the internet. Not one specializes in abuse. I called Patrick Doyle’s counseling and left several messages and emails. No answer. Also focus on the family does not deal with abuse. Do you have any suggestions? Thank you so much
Rose, I wish that I could give you a simple answer, but life – and the people in it – are not simple.
God knows this: why does Proverbs say in one place that we should answer a fool according to his folly, and in another place that we should NOT answer him according to his folly? The answer: because it depends. Yes, God hates divorce. He hates the hurt and destruction it inflicts on individuals, families, and in His church. He also hates the hurt that people cause each other in relationships, including marriages. In God’s perfect plan, wives would respect their husbands and husbands would love their wives as Christ loved the church, and both would submit to each other for their mutual benefit. But we live in a fallen world, and very often our marriages fall short of that ideal I believe that simply saying a wife cannot leave a destructive marriage unless there is infidelity is as dangerous as saying a person cannot go to heaven unless they tithe and go to church regularly: it leaves out the crucial question of the heart.
Will your husband’s heart change if you separate and wait for him? Will your children be better off knowing you could restore the family someday? Can you be safe and grow in God whether or not he repents? If so, then the answer may be for you to stay together whatever the circumstances that led you to this place. But since only God knows the deep waters of each of your hearts, only He can tell you what to do
My advice: Get quiet before God and wait for his guidance. Where you have peace, trust that is His will for you. If you don’t have peace with either choice, don’t make one, no matter who is pushing you to make one. God is never late, and He won’t let you down if you submit to Him. But he will not be forced into human timelines either. Trust that He loves you, He loves your husband, and He wants what is best for each of you. You can count on Him
Really good advice, Jennifer. I heartily agree.
Words of wisdom❤️
Jennifer, Rose,
I am so glad Wonuola commented this morning on your post of January 27. I think your post contained the answer for Rose’s and each of our hearts dilemma. I think it is worth copying and reposting here:
“Rose, I wish that I could give you a simple answer, but life – and the people in it – are not simple.
God knows this: why does Proverbs say in one place that we should answer a fool according to his folly, and in another place that we should NOT answer him according to his folly? The answer: because it depends. Yes, God hates divorce. He hates the hurt and destruction it inflicts on individuals, families, and in His church. He also hates the hurt that people cause each other in relationships, including marriages. In God’s perfect plan, wives would respect their husbands and husbands would love their wives as Christ loved the church, and both would submit to each other for their mutual benefit. But we live in a fallen world, and very often our marriages fall short of that ideal I believe that simply saying a wife cannot leave a destructive marriage unless there is infidelity is as dangerous as saying a person cannot go to heaven unless they tithe and go to church regularly: it leaves out the crucial question of the heart.
Will your husband’s heart change if you separate and wait for him? Will your children be better off knowing you could restore the family someday? Can you be safe and grow in God whether or not he repents? If so, then the answer may be for you to stay together whatever the circumstances that led you to this place. But since only God knows the deep waters of each of your hearts, only He can tell you what to do
My advice: Get quiet before God and wait for his guidance. Where you have peace, trust that is His will for you. If you don’t have peace with either choice, don’t make one, no matter who is pushing you to make one. God is never late, and He won’t let you down if you submit to Him. But he will not be forced into human timelines either. Trust that He loves you, He loves your husband, and He wants what is best for each of you. You can count on Him”
Rose,
You wrote: ” I am so worn out trying to prove to people that its not my imagination.”
I believe you. Let me say it again. I BELIEVE YOU.
I used to spend so much energy trying to convince others of the hell I was experiencing in my marriage and home. I think I must have been trying to convince the wrong people. ie. My family of origin, church people who believed : “The christian pastor/marriage counselor told me directly: “YOU HAVE NO OUT! WITHOUT INFIDELITY, YOU DO NOT HAVE BIBLICAL GROUNDS FOR DIVORCE AND IF YOU DIVORCE HIM, YOUR LIFE WILL BE HELL. YOU ARE BOUND TO THIS MAN FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE”.
I found that when I believed me, I acted on that belief. May I ask you, in your heart, what do you believe about your situation? If you heard this same story from another woman sharing as you have, what would you think about the counsel she received that GOD EXPECTS HER TO STAY?
It takes a lot of energy to try to convince others of your situation and this effort does make us sick. May I suggest you stop? If you decide to stop, may I suggest that you take whatever energy you have left after stopping and decide what you will do about your situation? I believe your situation is as horrible as you say. I believe you have a choice in whether you continue or discontinue. Women have written here in this blog about how staying in a destructive relationship empowers the abuser. You are not crazy. What I think is crazy is the idea that continuing to put yourself in harms way is what God wants.
It seems you are under some stress also to provide a quick answer to your attorney? This is a big decision for you. Not sure why your attorney needs to know so quickly, but perhaps it can wait a week, or two? Can you separate for a bit so you can clear your head?
I am new here so I am admittedly not an expert by any means. Just responding from my heart in the place I am currently.
Praying for you Rose. Praying the Lord will provide a CLEAR direction for you and for peace. Love to you dear sister.
Robin,
THank you for sharing your story with me. It is a comfort to know that other women do understand and believe me. Im NOT losing my sanity, Im NOT a “kook”. Its not my mindset or me trying to justify a divorce..all things my husband says to me. No, these things ARE really happening. Its not right that I have to pay sexually when I buy something at the store, or when I need him to do a task around the house, or to be spoken to only when he says I “must be a good wife” and satisfy him sexually. Im forced to do things and say things I dont want to, but then Im told “stop it, youre my wife, dont you want to please your husband?”. but he ignores me and my feelings and what I desperately crave from him (a partner I can talk to and feel safe with, someone I can trust and be vulnerable with, that wont hurt me, someone who loves me for ME, as a person, not what I can give them sexually, a person who values me and respects me and treats me kindness, compassion and shows patience when he doesnt get his way). I am so exhausted of having this same conversation with him over and over for years. Ive also written letters to help him understand my heart. I am ashamed to admit, I have even begged him…pls be nice to me. Im sorry…Im rambling too much. thank you for listening.
lori,
thank you so much for your response. Your message really resonated with me. the reason for the pressure from my lawyer is because at our last court date in oct, I appeared before the judge and told her i was ready to move forward with the divorce. then i got really scared. Oh god, i thought, how can i do this on my own? at my age? having never worked during my 20 year marriage? how will I make it financially? I’ll be all alone. My children will be leaving home soon…then what?” and those thoughts caused me to rethink my decision. I called the lawyer and told him i am considering just seperating, rather than divorcing. He told me I had until late january, early february before the judge will finalize the divorce. so if im changing my mind, he needs to let the judge know before she finalizes the divorce. I have been seperated from my husband since dec 1. During this time, he has shown no remorse or repentance. He remains nasty, harsh, bitter, angry and selfish. Still demanding his way. I am the one intiating meeting with him to talk. I continue to try and explain my heart, but he remains hard hearted, uncompassionate and indifferent. My time is up. I must make a decision now. It has been three months since my court date and the judge wants to know either way how i want to proceed.
Rose, be kind towards yourself. It is a tough decision indeed.
Rose…things don’t seem right, because things aren’t right. I have been there where the Christian counselor and other voices are not helping. I am praying for you today. Boundaries and core strengthening will help even in the chaos.
I wish I could memorize this post of Leslie’s, there is so much good in it.
Connie, I have a journal where I write Leslies posts, when there is one I will benefit from in the future.
It helps me wonderfully to remember some of the truths we discuss on this blog.
Connie I meant to say, WORD BY WORD, I write it all down. Nice to have those Scriptures handy .
“Friend: What helped you to let go of hope without giving up that God was still good and still at work, even if the outcome didn’t turn out the way you wanted it to?”
I would say that I am still in process here…it took me a long time to get honest and face reality. Now that I finally have, I have begun interventions (boundaries culminating in recent separation and husband entering a 6-month program for destructive men. While I am giving it a chance to “wake him up” and “turn him around,” I am not holding to false hope. I have seen few signs from his behavior, past or present that give me realistic hope. I have little reason to think he will change. These 6 months I will be praying and hoping for true heart change resulting in behavior change (and/or vice-versa.) In the meantime, learning, growing, working on me. Releasing him, and committed to moving forward with the Lord, with or without him. I hope he chooses to step into the light so we can grow together. But if he doesn’t, I will release him completely and move on. Not sure what that looks like; I just know it will be revealed.
So while I will always hope for a miracle for him, I will not make my decisions for me based on that. I will make them based on moving forward with Christ. The miracle may or may not come. But my obedience in walking loyally to Christ instead of my husband is what I am responsible for; and that is what my focus is.
Oh T.L. Thank you for : “So while I will always hope for a miracle for him, I will not make my decisions for me based on that. I will make them based on moving forward with Christ. The miracle may or may not come. But my obedience in walking loyally to Christ instead of my husband is what I am responsible for; and that is what my focus is.”
I truly believe we did not marry with the intent of someday having to walk alone except for death parting us from our spouses. The suffering of this reality is enormous and I believe what keeps people in destructive marriages. Perhaps when the pain of the destruction proves to be too much to handle, we choose to remove ourselves a safe distance from the abuse. I applaud your obedience and loyalty to Christ and pray God continues to strengthen you on your way with Him. I pray Gods will be done in your marriage and family and that you experience His peace today.
Thank you Lori. It is so insulting to have a person like James show up on this site and try to make us, the women who have endured habitual abuse at the hands of men who claim the name of Christ, women who have suffered and anguished and “tried to be better wives” for years, keep under the yoke of oppression that enables wickedness to rule in our homes! Why isn’t he showing up here and calling out his brothers for their callous sin? For their self-serving twisting of Scripture? No; we are supposed to tolerate sin in our homes because of the marraige covenant that our husbands have made a mockery of.
That’s misguided loyalty.
T.L.
Is there some section of this blog where those brother’s of mine who are twisting scriptures to abuse their wives are posting?
If you can point one of them out to me, I’d be happy to oblige!
TO TL:
Your response was spot on! great wisdom! I actually printed it out to remind myself over and over. You are absolutely right. During seperation, we must use this time to work on ourselves, spiritually and emotionally. We must stop focusing on what our husbands are not doing, how theyre not changing. We remove ourselves from the unhealthy situation, we work on ourselves, as we watch and observe to see if our husbands truly have a change in heart and a change in habit (as Leslie wd say). Then at some point, we reevaluate the situation.
Dear Rose,
I have only just now read your desperate plea for help. My heart is both weeping and livid over what is happening to you.
“He says he wants the separation, not divorce. Of course, that is his way of still maintaining what little bit of control he has left. The christian pastor/marriage counselor told me directly: “YOU HAVE NO OUT! WITHOUT INFIDELITY, YOU DO NOT HAVE BIBLICAL GROUNDS FOR DIVORCE AND IF YOU DIVORCE HIM, YOUR LIFE WILL BE HELL. YOU ARE BOUND TO THIS MAN FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE”. I had never felt more hopeless in my entire life. But God, you see how he treats me. I am sick emotionally, mentally and physically (with IBS flare ups from so much strife) how could you demand that I must stay? But Jesus says, if you love me, you will obey my commands. ”
Rose, I encourage you to back up for a minute, and look at the big picture: you are a daughter of a great and gracious King, a kind, compassionate and loving Father. A God, who sent his one and only Son to pay all of your debts and to buy your freedom. Jesus came to set the captives free….to give you abundant life.
“It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.”
Rose, my dear sister, I encourage you to read chapter 5 of Galatians with an open heart, allowing the Holy Spirit to show you how “the law” is being used to entrap and imprison you. You are not desiring to fulfill the lusts of your flesh, but to walk in the Spirit. You are being manipulated by an ungodly man, (I can’t judge his heart, but his actions are UNGODLY!) This is throwing you into great confusion–those around you too! His claims to Christianity are hollow–the clanging drum and empty cymbal, because his heart is not one sold out to love. This man has been and wants to continue to wield power and control over you: emotionally, verbally, spiritually, financially. That constitutes abuse; a destructive marriage. He is to serve and love; not to abuse and control. Your heart knows this and is screaming, “Something is terribly wrong!!!” Because it is! The Spirit of God within you is grieved! He loves you. He is with you. Hear Him: His heart is with the oppressed and against the oppressor. He is WITH YOU!
If you re-read the passage in Malachi “God hates divorce” with an open heart to the heart of your compassionate Father you will see that the entire passage is about God’s anger against the power-holding men of the culture who were using and abusing their powerless wives; doing violence to their vows, and breaking trust with them. So really what He hates is abuse of power, which divorce was at that time.
This same spirit of control, taking advantage of, and abuse, is rampant in the Evangelical church today, and it is time to say NO MORE!! Men are hiding their ungodliness by holding their wives ransom to the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law; which is love! I’m sorry men: you cannot walk in ungodliness, selfishness, pornography, pride, and power in the name of Christ and keep your wives in the hell of your making anymore! Either walk out of the darkness into the light and get serious and deal with your sin, or be exposed for the frauds that you are!
I encourage you, Rose, to get away from this pastor/counselor who is so mis-led and misleading. He doesn’t know the heart of the Father. He is holding the law over your head–and he doesn’t know the heart of the law-giver.
Yes, Jesus said “If you love me, you will obey my commandments.” His commandments can be summed up: Love the Lord your god with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself. ”
Rose, believe me, I know, it is so hard to see the forest when a big fat tree is blocking our view…
But you must try to back up; get some objectivity: is it loving someone to enable them, protect them in their sinful lifestyle?
It is very hard to untangle this, because… are you innocent? No. But your husband is caught in a web of manipulation, power, deceit, and pride. His LIFESTYLE is one of wickedness. He is well-practiced in the devices of the enemy. He is not living according to the law of love. The fruit of the Spirit is not his lifestyle. He lives and maneuvers by the flesh, while claiming Christ. This is confusing you.
You have likely indulged in “reactive abuse” (research it!) this is the inevitable result of abuse, as the victim struggles to take back some control over their own life.
I would urge you to get some space. Get some quiet… listen to the voice of your beloved, who says to you:
‘Arise, my darling, my beautiful one,
And come along.
‘For behold, the winter is past,
The rain is over and gone.
Get away alone for a few days. Go to a quiet place in nature, if you can. Is that possible? Your Beloved wants to wrap you in His love, to soothe your hurting heart, to quiet your confused thoughts, and to infuse you with His love, strength, wisdom and grace. He wants to tell you that you are His, and your allegiance belongs ONLY to Him, despite the lies of these men. He will show you, step-by-step, what to do, where to go for godly help and counsel. He will extract you from the web of lies.
Rose, you’re braver than you believe,
and stronger than you seem,
and smarter than you think.
Fear not, the Lord your God is with you, wherever you go.
And this is true for every one of you, and me, who have been held under the yoke of oppression. Our God is mighty to save! Go with Him!
Hi Rose,
Somewhere you asked if I knew where you could find a counselor skilled in dealing with destructive/abusive marriages. Because of the necessary anonymity of this blog, none of us knows where the others live, so it is a hard question to answer.
But here are some ideas:
1.Write to Leslie (Pennsylvania), Chris Moles (W. Virginia), Patrick Doyle (Oregon), and Diane Langberg (Pennsylvania) asking if they know anyone in your area. Steven Stosny or Lundy Bancroft might be worth contacting for a referral of a secular therapist.
2. Another route would be to look for a counselor whose list of what they work with includes abuse, trauma, and or anger issues.
3. Skype counsel with Leslie or Patrick Doyle
4. Contact local service organizations that deal with abuse: Women’s shelters, etc. Try this site: http://www.ncadv.org/learn-more/resources
Maybe Leslie or others have other ideas…praying for light for your path. The Lord will lead and guide you as you step out and begin seeking and knocking on doors for help.
James,
I am a voice of radical obedience and my marriage was Saved!
My husband is blessed by my courage (from the Lord) that I stood up to his manipulation and denial. He’s free from his bondage of control tactics and counterfeit idols.
All manipulators seek ‘enablers’ to co contribute to the problem!
And then tell them that they are being an obedient wife or (spouse).
James when you begin to see that your ‘beliefs’ and behaviors are linked it might be the very thing that shows you His Grace and mighty perfect love for you! 💜
Prayers for your heart and healing.
Aly,
If you walked in obedience to Gal 6:1-2 then praise the Lord!
Its likely true that manipulative people seek those who will enable their manipulations. It isn’t very likely that manipulative people see past their own selfish needs long enough to see when their spouse is being manipulative.
As to. “James when you begin to see that your ‘beliefs’ and behaviors are linked it might be the very thing that shows you His Grace and mighty perfect love for you! 💜”
I’m not exactly sure what you are getting at here, perhaps you could clarify..? but I am surely blessed to have experienced His saving grace and His perfect love. We surely have a gracious God.
Thank you for your prayers, I will pray for your healing and your heart as well.
It isn’t very likely that manipulative people see past their own selfish needs long enough to see when their spouse is being manipulative.
Was meant to say, “It isn’t very likely that manipulative people see past their own selfish needs long enough to see when their spouse is being obedient.
Sorry for the confusion.
Aly,
May I offer a word of encouragement to you regarding your dialogue with James?
Hope can be a double edged sword. I went through the same thing…hope kept me in a destructive place for years. I wrote about it here: https://searchforthesilverliningblog.wordpress.com/2016/08/10/hope-the-double-edged-sword/
Of course;)
Aly,
You have been such a blessing to so many in this community. Your compassion for people and love for our Lord is a powerful combination as you make your self available as a vessel of His love and wisdom to us. James has already stated from the last blog post that, and I quote, (incidentally, you might consider that there is a fair amount of heterodoxy tolerated on this site). Leslie called him out at around 8:30 saying: “You imply that the only women of radical obedience are the ones that think like you do. Sometimes radical obedience might look one way – and other times it might look like another. Please do not judge these women. You are welcome to your thoughts, your input, your comments, but when you start to sound like you are judging, I will jump in here because it’s uncalled for.” I hope James sees the truth in Leslie’s comments. Regardless, your focus and heart for the women here is proving to be invaluable. I hope you remain focused on the work God is calling you to here and not get distracted by the conversations with James. Just saying.
You are so right, Lori. We really have no position to judge another person’s actions or decisions, because WE AREN’T THERE! Until you walk a mile in my shoes….and all that. Every situation has its own dynamic, and I love that so many women here share their struggles and how they overcame them. That is such an encouragement. As I said in a previous post, even though my marriage is really good, I have lived through many other traumatic situations, principally with our children. Now, I am a counselor, and this blog has helped me in my work with my clients. Even though I am not trained in marriage counseling, my clients often bring marital issues to me, and I am enlightened by reading the experiences of so many who have suffered through destructive marriages. Thank you all for sharing.
Thank you so much! Your are so right!
So good to hear and I’m so thankful for your words here. Yes, I saw Leslie’s comment and I was grateful.
So thankful for you all💜
Aly,
If it is not distracting, and you are called to engage in dialogue, that is a different story. Since I don’t know which it is for you, it’s just a heads up I guess?
Lori,
I hope you saw my previous post I’m so thankful for your words here. I agree with you… and so appreciate your wisdom here.
I only felt called to respond.. since I’m sure women are toggling with difficult decisions as well as questioning their reality. Sometimes it can be more of an ingrained attachment place where… us gals are ‘familiar’ with a male voice or words regardless if they are the best for us and are biblical true healthy interpretated conceptsI know for me, given my wounds I wanted to feel like I had male support for my situation.
My heart just felt strongly to give another side and hope that a vulnerable woman reading his post wouldn’t be lead to more of the same and or false guilt for doing right actions.
When someone is under so much grief when they are unclear about the level of destructive behavior it so easy for them to receive those messages of guilt especially when they are getting ready to be brace or gain strength to change what they will and will not tolerate or accept.
I listened far too long of too many of James’ perspectives in the most critical moments.
Thanks again for your heart and your story Lori, such a blessing.
I’m sorry about your brother’s treatment but I have a feeling your well aware of the enmeshed patterns and roles, so it’s not surprising to you but that doesn’t mean it’s not still painful.
I’m sorry 😢
Aly,
It makes so much sense what you shared: “My heart just felt strongly to give another side and hope that a vulnerable woman reading his post wouldn’t be lead to more of the same and or false guilt for doing right actions.”
Think you nailed it here. Sometimes I think I project my experiences, weaknesses etc. onto other people, and perhaps I did that here with you. I know for me, to engage in dialogue with James about his perspective would lead me back to the jungle. Perhaps one day I will be far enough out that I will be able to express my differing views of how scripture applies to the situations many of us women here find our selves in. For now, I hear condemnation and more judgement from his message. I also hear him justifying his position using scripture. I hear bible thumping like a drum in my head. That familiar sound of the jungle. Where is compassion? Where is understanding? Where is effort to assist the wounded? I believe the drum beaters believe they are helping, but I wonder if they see how they may be hurting? Hearing comments from you and Leslie help with clarity. It is like the story of Jesus healing the blind man. At first, he could only see men walking around looking like trees, and Jesus applied more healing. Then he could see clearly. It helps to see the articulation of comments here that say what is in my heart, but I cannot find language for yet.
Also helpful was your comment: “When someone is under so much grief when they are unclear about the level of destructive behavior it so easy for them to receive those messages of guilt especially when they are getting ready to be brace or gain strength to change what they will and will not tolerate or accept.”
There it is. It is a message of guilt. Boom!
Thank you.
Lori,
Thank you so much for your comments and insights especially the warning of the web as we see in Proverbs.
I so love your heart that is such a symbol of redemption given your journey. Your brave because of WHO you put your trust in, I love that I see that;) So many blessings in women commenting, sharing their strengths and their journey. It’s such a blessing to read so much wisdom amongst pain.
Affliction that God won’t waste~ His way.. not the way of more comfortable enabling.
I think we might agree the power of exposing things that can be hard to detect at first glance. As little children, He draws us close ~ do we ever get a close up view!!
Overwhelming~
I’m sorry that you had so many people that were..
~What I would call ‘poser’ bible thumpers~ Living technically in the jungle or by the gate.
Let me explain as I address a couple inconsistencies with James comments to Mineral & me yesterday.
As I dialoged with God about my fears about those in the jungle being tossed around…. I felt a sense of joy and hope. As if the comments of his and minerals were a blessing because the conflicting mindsets they have and what scriptures they are using to defend ~are exposed in writing.
Which, I think God’s word can give us a treasure of jewels here;)
So thank you James!
I’m quite curious why james choose to have me look to ONLY two verses from the Bible to define as biblical obedience.
Here is the verse: please look it up..
Galatians 6:1-2
It’s been a while since I’ve been in Galatians but I’m pretty sure there was a public disput between Paul and Peter! Peter was publicly confronted by Paul for COMPROMISING the faith. This is all in Galatians 2 if you want to look into it. Peter was actually being pulled back to his Jewish social pressures over the truth of the Gospel to be spread.
There’s a lot here and why this relates to the benefit of actual bible thumpers and those that are well not well defended based on how they make their conclusions..,and I can write later.. might be boring to some, but Peter was getting compromised by Fear!
I digress.. but always Paul was outraged.
Ok back to Gal 6:1-2
(Doing Good to All)
I find it interesting and revealing that only 2 verses out of 10 are what speak to spiritual obedience as James defends in Gal 6. Not trying to sound harsh here but this is where we can fall in wanting to find scripture that aligns ‘to our lives or current circumstance’ but not wanting scripture to align ‘our lives’
For me, Minerals’ comments represent that form of spiritual defense that can easily lead to more bondage generationally.
Back to Galations:
The verses that follow 2
speak of ‘personal responsibility’ and carry burdens.
James IS leaving out a critical aspect of ‘Personal Responsibility’ given our discussion on biblical obedience!! Wait a sec…Seems convenient to me. And when convenience comes into a process.. I must stop and critically ponder that.
The part for me to take away in Galations and it’s purpose~
There are several points to reference but I’ll make one.. the danger of misusing the Gospel.. that can create ‘bondage’ rather than the freedom the Gospel brings!
What James defines as ‘criticism’, I would define as ‘correction’ (gently given). Paul in chapter 6 was addressing ‘brothers’
Fellow faith in Christ alone ‘believing Christians’.
Ok back to the pattern which for me has helped.. I hope it adds help to those that desire to seek His Kingdom ultimately.
There is usually a pattern for me, for those underdeveloped individuals… correction is
a difficult process for them to cognitively develop, the older one’s thought patterns become (here is just an age thought 35-50yrs) without having early modeling of safe correction makes any correction ‘feel like criticism’.
This doesn’t mean someone isn’t saved or doesn’t have the Holy Spirit avail to them.
Do they choose to feed the Spirit thus naturally reaping character and humility?
Actually that is also pointed out in Galations chapter 6.
Lori and for anyone else reading I hope you can take away my perspective on identifying these patterns especially when one is trying to discern the truth.
My story is so similar to many of yours and my heart wants to hold your yours as a fellow sister that prayed to God to show me wisdom to follow.
I discover so much each day as I’m learning about Him and what’s genuine and not counterfeit.
Praying for rest for your heart and strength for your body and mind!
He loves you!
Aly, I did look up Galations 6:1-2 and here is an interesting perspective from the bible scholar Matthew Henry: “The apostle having, in the foregoing chapter, exhorted Christians by love to serve one another (v. 13), and also cautioned us (v. 16) against a temper which, if indulged, would hinder us from showing the mutual love and serviceableness which he had recommended, in the beginning of this chapter he proceeds to give some further directions, which, if duly observed, would both promote the one and prevent the other of these, and render our behaviour both more agreeable to our Christian profession and more useful and comfortable to one another: particularly,
I. We are here taught to deal tenderly with those who are overtaken in a fault, v. 1. He puts a common case: If a man be overtaken in a fault, that is, be brought to sin by the surprise of temptation. It is one thing to overtake a fault by contrivance and deliberation, and a full resolution in sin, and another thing to be overtaken in a fault. The latter is the case here supposed, and herein the apostle shows that great tenderness should be used.”
I see the bible scholar clarifying a difference between the type of sin Paul is referring to in Galatians 6:1-2 “The tenderness in bearing one anothers burdens is to be extended to those who have “been brought to sin by the surprise of temptation”. This is the “latter case here supposed, and herein the apostle shows that great tenderness should be used.” The former sin: “to overtake a fault by contrivance and deliberation, and a full resolution in sin” is not what Paul is supposedly referring to here. Paul deals with that type of sin in other places of scripture. Interesting to note the difference as I hear women including myself here dealing with the former type of sin practice our husbands engage in. I believe it is vitally important to rightly divide the word of TRUTH. Expose, expose expose.
Insightful point, Lori! Thank you!
Aly,
I want to respond to this that you shared: “There are several points to reference but I’ll make one.. the danger of misusing the Gospel.. that can create ‘bondage’ rather than the freedom the Gospel brings! ”
Again, I quote from the bible scholar Matthew Henry with regard to the FULL counsel of Galatians in 6: 11-14 :
“In these verses of text, the main design of the epistle, was to fortify the Galatians against the arts of their judaizing teachers, and confirm them in the truth and liberty of the gospel, for which purpose he Gives them the true character of these teachers, and shows them from what motives, and with what views, they acted.
“I. He gives them the true character of those teachers who were industrious to seduce them, in several particulars.
As, 1. They were men who desired to make a fair show in the flesh, v. 12. They were very zealous for the externals of religion, forward to observe, and to oblige others to observe, the rites of the ceremonial law, though at the same time they had little or no regard to real piety; for, as the apostle says of them in the following verse, neither do they themselves keep the law. Proud, vain, and carnal hearts desire nothing more than to make a fair show in the flesh, and they can easily be content with so much religion as will help them to keep up such a fair show; but frequently those have least of the substance of religion who are most solicitous to make a show of it.
2. They were men who were afraid of suffering, for they constrained the Gentile Christians to be circumcised, only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. It was not so much out of a regard to the law as to themselves; they were willing to sleep in a whole skin, and to save their worldly cargo, and cared not though they made shipwreck of faith and a good conscience.
That which they chiefly aimed at was to please the Jews, and to keep up their reputation among them, and so to prevent the trouble that Paul, and other faithful professors of the doctrine of Christ, lay open to.
And, 3. Another part of their character was that they were men of a party spirit, and who had no further zeal for the law than as it subserved their carnal and selfish designs; for they desired to have these Christians circumcised, that they might glory in their flesh (v. 13), that they might say they had gained them over to their side, and made proselytes of them, of which they carried the mark in their flesh.
And thus, while they pretended to promote religion, they were the greatest enemies of it; for nothing has been more destructive to the interest of religion than men-siding and party-making.”
Today, I am thankful to God for converting Saul to Paul and helping him to become a true Godly man. Thankful that Paul yielded to Gods truth and becoming a champion of exposing. Who better to speak to wrongful oppression by using his religious zeal than Paul? Thankful for Paul and Matthew Henry for their dedication and devotion to rightly dividing the word of truth so we can follow the truth and not the oh so closely duplicated counterfeit.
I pray we here in the body of Christ Choose wisely which truth we adhere to, as the end of each is a very different one.
So good, Lori. Thank you!
“I’m quite curious why james choose to have me look to ONLY two verses from the Bible to define as biblical obedience.”
So why not just ask as to why I only cited two verse instead of assuming a whole host of things, honestly, none of which are accurate.
Here’s the answer. Those are the two verses that came to mind when you said you saved your marriage because Gal 6:1 talks about restoring someone caught in sin. I said that if that was the case (that you restored your marriage through gently restoring your husband), then praise the Lord.
You are reading waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy too much into my intentions. And I would just ask that you allow my to speak for my own thoughts. This is now the second time in this thread that my motives have been wrongly assumed and then rebuked based on those false assumptions.
“It’s been a while since I’ve been in Galatians but I’m pretty sure there was a public disput between Paul and Peter!”
Yes, Paul dealt with that in chapter 2. You might consider that Paul has long since moved on from that dispute by the time he is giving his instructions in chapter 6.
“I find it interesting and revealing that only 2 verses out of 10 are what speak to spiritual obedience as James defends in Gal 6.”
And what, specifically do you think that this “reveals?” What other assumptions are you making about my thoughts and motives?
Here’s why I cited Gal 6:1-2 instead of the whole chapter (which isn’t 10 verses its 18). I was simply making a quick citation that addressed your claim that you saved your marriage. I replied that if you did so, by gently restoring your husband in a spirit of gentleness (which is the only part of Gal 6 I had in mind when I posted) then “praise the Lord.”
Why are you taking my attempt to affirm your obedience and twisting it so that you can work me over?
“James IS leaving out a critical aspect of ‘Personal Responsibility’ given our discussion on biblical obedience!! “
Maybe. My post to you wasn’t exactly meant to be a comprehensive treatise on the 6th chapter of the book of Galatians, sheesh!
The jungle, yes. And if you’ve been in the jungle long enough, you can predict what is coming so well. His reply to Leslie was exactly what I’d told a friend it would be last night (who me? I don’t get it – poor misunderstood me). And then I went over and read today’s post on A Cry For Justice, and it was so good and relevant!
This kind of teaching produces so much bondage! Church people too often think that if something is ‘worldly’, then the Christian view should be the opposite. Not so. Counterfeit looks almost exactly the same as the real thing. Some churches ban pianos because they have been used in bars. Granted, their four-part-harmony a cappella singing is very lovely, but as my mom used to say,”Take back what the devil has stolen.” All this to say that many church people think feminism is terrible, but it is just the counterfeit of what God wants to do and is doing. People who have power over others cannot handle it, it always corrupts, even in the church. That is why the American gov’t. developed checks and balances, because those founding dudes knew the danger of power. What opened my eyes was that I one day realized that not only was the h being abusive, but I was becoming abusive to the children because I thought I had absolute power over them and should not have to listen to their hearts. You know – the ‘chain of command’ that we were taught. And I saw that abuse of power everywhere in the church. Abuse from above, and women and children miserable but you didn’t know it because they had been commanded to smile all the time and pretend they were happy. And we were trying to convince ourselves that we were happy, because, after all, the Bible says we would be, right? Or maybe we just weren’t submissive enough. Either way, this teaching gives licence for men to put all evil on women. One ‘christian’ article I read at the time by a woman, claimed that now she was very happy. Then she drew several cartoons of herself with her husband holding a bat over her head. In each cartoon she was bent over a bit more, and at the end she was flat on the floor with that bat on top of her and she said that was full surrender. That may be, but it ain’t love, that’s for certain!!
The German people had a rule of ‘obey authority without question’. See where that got them? Why do you think the church there didn’t speak up until it was too late? My grandfather did, and was put on house arrest (and nearly prison) for 4 years, his phone was tapped, they sent spies to his house pretending to be church guys…….
Ann, I think an important part of ‘giving up on hope’ is seeing the reality and not what u wish it was. What woman wants to have a divorce?? But one day we must let go of the ‘wishes’ and see reality.
My husband is abusive, he left the marriage and crushed our Covenant before God, and my part is to see the truth and reality. It rips thru us to have to see the truth. It is very tough to let go of the hope we had, that he would change. But to be healthier, we must march forward .
We must show our children what a healthy family looks like. I truly was terrified . Today I am radiant and full of Joy, as the Lord continues to heal me.
Thanks for your response, Robin. Every week I move forward. Today I bought a printer so I can manage the paperwork from home instead of lugging it to Staples to copy, scan, etc. Baby steps=Big steps.
Lori, I have received so much comfort thru my divorce, watching God display how much He loves me thru the abundant provision He had ready for me, all I needed to do is walk in my faith and He was ready to supply. Looking back today over the last 2-3 years, warms my heart as I was so fearful how I would make it on my own. God had it covered.
Robin,
Such a blessing to read your journey through and out;)
You have such a testimony that God will multiply for His glory.
Abundance in the full!
Blessings and hugs;)
Aly, I am very blessed as my counselor (who I’ve been with for 4 years) has asked me to work with her. She feels that the things I have walked thru victoriously ( even with a sociopath/narcissist who was trying to destroy me) is something the Lord would be pleased to use for other women walking thru abuse issues. I’m very excited about this opportunity because 20 years ago the Lord told me I would go into ministry with and for women. But of course He had trials and victories and much transformation to do in me first. God rescued me out of a pit- and He will use it for His People. Amen.
My Testimony is what I will be sharing……..
This is exciting to hear, Robin!
I am amazed that you found a Christian counselor who could provide this. But then, there’s Leslie, and Patrick Doyle, so surely there are others.
When we went to a Christian counselor about hidden spending seven years ago, the lady’s focus was on saving the marriage by keeping me doubting the reasonableness of leaving it. She never challenged my husband on his refusal to address how he’d spent $12,000, nor on the previous times he’d run up similar debt, nor on how he was going to own the behavior and prevent further repetition.
At the time I did not understand how to challenge this. Bless her heart, that counselor felt like she’d scored a win for Christianity.
Hi Robin,
Love your encouragement that we don’t have to defend our position. Thank you. I have seen some healthy exchange of differing views here, but sadly the unhealthy reminds me of what I just came out of. I battled so hard to be understood for my position of what I heard the Lord calling me to (or out of). Seems to fall on deaf ears. 🙁 I finally learned to listen only to the Lord and be willing to follow His Holy Spirit as He guided me with scripture after scripture in confirmation that it was He Who was really leading me out. Reminds me of Peter when he asked the Lord to call him to walk on water also. Who are we going to obey? I choose Jesus.
I wondered if you could share how God has taken care of you financially as you are now on your own? I am sorry if this is a repeat testimony, but I would love to hear it.
thank you.
James,
My heart sunk when I read her post. You applauded and gave your version of what ‘you define’ should be commended here.
I politely disagree with the biblical worldview truth you are relating to especially as it pertains to ‘covenant marriage’ and the scriptures you use to defend your reasoning.
We have a huge epidemic here with divorces, abusive marriages, mediocre marriages etc and that is just in the Christian community.
I believe her position and her reasoning are sensitive matter given what she has been taught and shape her belief system.
Someone is spiritualizing her suffering in her marriage and giving doctrine examples to give her a ‘feel good message’
Rather than walk her through a journey of faith doing his will.
It’s very hard when we are fearful or draw to comfort to find reasoning that keeps us bound.. not free.
Consider Romans 12:1-2
James, please go study.. evaluate and critically think about what you greatly messaging with your personal agenda wounds here.
Retreat to your men (Godly brothers) you are in great need of them to help you.
I pray that you will seek him and find His truths for your heart.
💜
Aly,
I’m aware of the epidemic of divorce. I personally attribute this to the fact that very few in our biblically illiterate culture understand marriage to be a covenant between two people and their God.
You are right that she is absolutely applying what she has learned.
What she has learned appears to be:
1. That the covenant of marriage is sacred because it was created by God (Gen 2:24)
2. That we should honor our marriage vows (James 5:12)
3. That Jesus’ only explicit cause for divorce is sexual immorality (Matthew 19:9)
4. That she can live in such a way in the midst of her marriage that God will be glorified even if her husband is yet unrepentant (1 Peter 3:1-2)
I personally think that these are all biblical assumptions.
Perhaps you can tell me which one of these assumptions you would like to challenge and your studied, biblical reason to challenge them.
Her suffering IS SPIRITUAL. Why would we want to rob her of that? We certainly shouldn’t wish it upon her, I think we would all deliver her from suffering if we could. But for some reason that God may never reveal to me, some people are stuck in a marriage with a man or a woman who is disobedient.
I am more than happy to study whatever biblical passages you suggest. Can you please kindly point me to the passage or passages of scripture that tells us explicitly that if we are married to an unrepentant spouse we at liberty to leave them?
I will eagerly await those verses.
I think this is vitally important because I see, post, after post after post, of women encouraging other women to consider separation and divorce.
I am only a moderately intelligent man so perhaps it is just my own cognitive limitations but I have a really hard time understanding how encouraging one another to separate or divorce does anything to help the divorce crisis in the church.
As to the men to whom I am accountable, they are all men who pretty well insist that I put the bible first and other’s opinions second. That, in my mind, is the best we can renew our minds (your allusion to Romans 12:1-2). We don’t renew our minds by parroting the cultures stance on marriage (which is that it is disposable when it becomes hard) or by licking our finger and sticking it in the air to see which direction the psychological wind is currently blowing (which tells us that we should never have to suffer for doing good).
This woman has an honorable commitment to the word of God and she is suffering for doing good.
My heart aches for this woman and for men and women like her. And to be sure, they ARE suffering, so if they must suffer for doing good should we not stand with them and encourage them rather than cause them cast doubts on their commitment to their marriage?
Dear James,
From the content and tone of your writing, I believe that you are sincere and well-meaning. I think you really believe that you are promoting the Word and the will of God. I hope that you will hear me…that you will, at least, entertain the possibility that you have in part, misunderstood, misinterpreted and mis-expounded the Word of God.
In Biblical days, slavery was allowed, was lawful. We find Peter and Paul encouraging slaves (Christian slaves) to obey their masters (Christian or non-Christian!), even harsh masters, in a culture that condoned slavery. They also instructed masters (Christian masters!) to treat their slaves as brothers in Christ; “doing the same” to them: i.e., loving them, serving them, respecting them, even though they had “ownership” of them. They were called to the higher authority than the cultural legal system: God Himself, the righteous judge of all. They were reminded that God Himself was watching and judging, and holding them accountable for their treatment of slaves. Later we find Paul telling slaves that if they can gain their freedom, they should do so, because really, in Christ their is no slave and no free, no male and no female, but we are all one in Christ. (1Cor.7:20-22; Gal. 3:28)
We also find wives being told to submit to their husbands….and husbands to submit to and love their wives as Christ loved the church. The unspoken assumption in these books is that Peter and Paul are writing to Christians…and mainly to Christian men, as it was a male-dominated culture. And their instructions to men (and women, but the focus was to men as the leaders in the cultural system) was to “prefer one another,” “serve one another,” “love one another,” “be completely humble and gentle,” etc. Nowhere do we see Paul and Peter instructing or condoning male domination or even headship/leadership in the sense of “lording it over” others. Jesus soundly rebuked that attitude, and so did they.
I wonder, James, if Jesus walked into the home of a man who claimed to be a Christian, but was mistreating, dominating, abusing his wife: do you REALLY think he would counsel the wife to suffer patiently? Or would his attention be on the oppressor? Wouldn’t he more likely rebuke the wicked “Christian” man for being a hypocrite and oppressor and fraud? I don’t wonder at all about this, for I know the heart of my Lord. He hates oppression and lying and hypocrisy. Do you really think Jesus values the institution of marriage over the precious people He loves?
God is for marriage; yes! But He is for truth, righteousness, and love, over and above the legal institution. He is for marriage as a Holy Covenant of love and honor and respect. He is for a true reflection of Christ and the church, not a facade. He is for Christian men laying their lives down for their wives, truly. He is against domination, abuse, and hypocrisy! And if they are struggling with sin? Sinful attitudes, secret sins, strongholds? He is for rebuking, and then exposure to the light! Men have been misusing Scripture to make their wives afraid to confront and expose hidden, entrenched, strongholds of sin in their husband’s lives. Christ-loving women are being called by their master to stand up, confront sin in their own households…and if confrontation doesn’t bring about repentance, then exposure to a few others is the next step. If that doesn’t bring a spouse to their senses, then exposure to the church is next. And if that doesn’t work, they are to be treated as a pagan or a tax collector. In other words; as an unbeliever; because they are living as one.
1 Peter 3 should not be misinterpreted, against the heart of Christ and for oppressive men who claim to be Christians but are not walking like one in the sacredness of their homes. 1 Peter 3 calls a woman to walk in purity and reverence before God, with a quiet and gentle (confident) heart, which has potential to win her disobedient husband over to the word. And then we are all told to live in reverence before God, serving and submitting to one another, loving one another, suffering for the sake of good.
But if a spouse is habitually disobeying this lifestyle, he should not be enabled by his wife, whose first loyalty, and allegiance is to Christ. She should not be afraid to stand up to evil, even when it is found in her own husband, but she should be prepared to suffer for doing good: standing up to sin and saying NO MORE! Not in my house! Not on my watch!
This is love; for it has the potential to free her husband and bring him to his senses; it protects her and her children from the destructiveness of the husband’s foolishness, and it protects the image of Christ and the church by saying: I will not “show brass for gold! I will not pretend this is a Christian marriage and you are a godly man. If you want to be seen as a godly man, then you will have to become one. If you want our marriage to portray Christ and the church, then you will have to follow in His ways. I am here to walk beside you if you do. But if you don’t; I will follow Christ, not you!”
Christian men have been using the grace of God as a cover-up for their sin for too long. It is time for repentance to begin in the house of God. Christ is on the move to cleanse his bride.
T.L.
Thanks for your post directed my way.
You asked if I was willing to entertain that I am misinterpreting God’s word.
Absolutely, provided that you can give me a salient biblical argument that appeals to literal, grammatical, historical meaning of the biblical text. Are you willing to consider the same?
So, let’s look at what appears to be your first argument.
It is true that in the first century slavery was allowed. It is also true that slaves were admonished to obey their masters and that Christian masters were commanded to treat their own slaves as brothers.
Everything you say on this is true but I’m yet unsure why you think it is relevant. Slavery was, thankfully, a temporary institution that biblically minded men began to abolish precisely because of passages like Gal 3:28 and 1 Co 7:21. Marriage, however is not a temporary institution, it is an institution that was created by God and remains until His coming. Furthermore, while Paul urges slaves to gain freedom if possible he counsels married couples to stay married in the same chapter (1 Cor 7:10-17).
We also find Paul’s counsel to wives to submit to their husband’s and for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church. As a complementarian, I don’t see any reason to conclude that this was culturally bound and therefore inapplicable in contemporary contexts.
You do make an excellent point, “Nowhere do we see Paul and Peter instructing or condoning male domination or even headship/leadership in the sense of “lording it over” others. Jesus soundly rebuked that attitude, and so did they.”
I absolutely agree. Is this your point? If it is then I think we can rejoice that we are in remarkable agreement over this. I do wonder what I have said in this thread, or any thread for that matter, that would lead you to believe that I am in favor of male domination or “lording authority” as headship? I certainly am not.
I do hope I am not seeing the creation of a straw man argument.
Next you argue that Jesus is much more concerned with the hypocrisy and oppression of the husband than the longsuffering of the wife. Again, we agree. The bible has some very pointed things to say about those who oppress. Unfortunately, Mineral’s husband didn’t post, she did. She knows he is unrepentant, she knows that he is in the wrong. Were he to have posted I am sure there would be a number of choice words directed his way and my words would be among them, but I tend to subscribe to the rule that one should talk to the person who is listening to you rather than the person who isn’t. I personally thought that Mineral could use some words of affirmation and encouragement. I am still a bit baffled as to how encouraging one woman got misconstrued as judging another and I’m more than a little dumbfounded as to why we shouldn’t encourage a woman to work toward keeping her marriage vows.
Finally, you articulate an argument I have heard more than once.
“Do you really think Jesus values the institution of marriage over the precious people He loves?”
This is the “does God care more about marriage than He does about women?” argument. And it’s a very clever false dilemma. The problem is that God very clearly cares about both. The bible is also clear that God sometimes calls his precious children to endure suffering for the sake of His glory. That’s the point of 1 Peter 4 which you allude to in your post. Just because we may be led to suffer for doing good does not mean God doesn’t care about us. Good gracious! Our own Savior called us to take up our cross daily and follow Him. I suppose some might say, “we don’t need to do that, God cares more about us than He does about our following His Son.” I think we all see why that is an argument from a false dilemma, so who do we keep making the same kind of argument when it comes to glorifying God by honoring our marriage vows?
Please don’t misunderstand, I am absolutely for husband’s loving their wives as Christ loved the church. I am absolutely for wives gently confronting their husbands (and husband’s gently confronting their wives) when the see their spouse caught in sin, I am absolutely for exposing sinful attitudes, secret sins and strongholds. I am absolutely for a woman asking for help from her church when her own attempts to gently confront her husband fail and I am for the church faithfully disciplining men (and women) who refuse to listen to reason and the word of God. I am all for dragging abusive men before the assembled church and rebuking them sharply if they remain in unrepentant.
And I’m not just for this in theory, I’ve done that to an elder I used to call my friend when his abusiveness toward his own wife was uncovered.
Good graciousness I lost an elder, a friend and ALMOST GOT SUED FOR IT! Perhaps you can understand why I find your insinuations that I am “siding with the abusive men” argument a bit off putting.
I am also for women (and men) who read their bibles and don’t look for loopholes or excuses and take upon themselves the mantle of faithfulness to a spouse who isn’t living right before God and whose strength of character urges them to wait on the Lord because marriage is a sacred covenant (not merely a legal “institution”). And I am for obeying the Lord Jesus when He said, “what God has joined together let no one separate.”
Finally, lets look briefly at 1 Peter 3:
You comment.
“1 Peter 3 should not be misinterpreted, against the heart of Christ and for oppressive men…”
First Peter 3 should be interpreted contextually. I absolutely reject the idea that we should start out with some idea about what 1 Peter 3 is allowed to mean or not mean based upon some preconceived agenda, even if that agenda is born from a pure heart. Faithful bible study starts with an open bible and an open mind, not a closed bible and an agenda that rules out what a passage might say before we even look at the passage.
So when you say:
“She should not be afraid to stand up to evil, even when it is found in her own husband, but she should be prepared to suffer for doing good: standing up to sin and saying NO MORE! Not in my house! Not on my watch!”
I can’t help but notice that this sounds an awful lot like trying to win an unrepentant husband over with words.
Yet here is what the text actually says, “Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, (1Pe 3:1 ESV)
And Peter isn’t speaking foolishly here because he knows there just aren’t any magical boundary words that will do what you say here…
“This is love; for it has the potential to free her husband and bring him to his senses;..”
Respectfully, no it does not.
God alone, by the power of the Holy Spirit, grants freedom and brings us to our senses. Paul is clear that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God (see 1 Cor 2:14). Your approach may well get a spouse to behave better but if genuine heart change is the goal I’m afraid we are all going to have to realize that God alone is qualified for that job. That’s why, “I saved my marriage by….” Is a bombastic statement. If God doesn’t save a marriage, that marriage is still in trouble and if we are taking credit for what God has done then we don’t yet know our place before Him.
That’s the key problem with the Cloud and Townsend, “Boundaries” approach, IMO. It says that “boundaries” have the power to do what God says He alone can do. A wife with boundaries is still insufficient to save her husband.
That’s why Mineral is SPOT ON.
And if you think she is wrong, then I would simply ask that you show both her and I, FROM THE BIBLE, where she is wrong.
Hello James,
First of all, it sounds as though you are describing yourself as a literalist fundamentalist, so we may as well agree to disagree right now. I hold God’s Word in high regard, and believe it has given us everything we need for life and godliness. But I am not a literalist fundamentalist, and I will not enter into a direct debate with you. It would be a waste of time. I will pray for you, however.
When you first showed up on this particular stream of comments, it was to commend one woman who is trapped into thinking the way you do: that the letter of the law is the main thing, and the spirit of the law is the minor. I pray she gets alone with her god and her Bible and listens to His heart for her.
I think the scribes and teachers of the law in Jesus day would be firmly on your side, but I don’t think Jesus would.
You are like a blind guide, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel.
The law of God was given for the protection and shalom of his people. Not to burden them, entrap them, hold them captive. Just ask Jesus.
You show up in this forum, where hurting, oppressed, drowning women are looking for a lifeline, and you praise and encourage one woman to continue to “suffer well.” Hey, good job drowning lady!
Please do not insult our collective intelligence by pretending you care about the plight of these women. We see through it. If you did, you would have begun by coming alongside them in their pain and anguish, even if your conclusions differed from theirs. You would have entered into their pain, as Jesus would have, and would have tried to bring comfort to their hurting hearts. You would have voiced your repugnance and outrage that a Christian man (nay, scores and scores of them!) would treat his wife in such a way that a desperate woman would end up here with such a story to tell. You would have told us that you have bothered to come by this particular blog to let us know that you care, and that you are doing all you can to help stop the injustice that causes our Father’s heart pain, that you are doing all you can to fight, expose, renounce, and end this kind of unholy, ungodly, sinful, disgraceful treatment of women in the church. Do you see the numbers, James? Do you hear the outcry at the injustice being done? Where pastors and leaders and men like you, rather than focusing on the sinner, beat the oppressed into submission by holding your interpretation of the law over her head? Can you really not see that you are a part of entrenched sin in the church?
Please don’t pretend you care about women and that you would happily renounce men who are oppressing their wives if there was a place to do it on this forum. How about you start a blog where you expose this sin in the church and tell wicked, abusive husbands (who are mentally, emotionally and spiritually abusing their wives and holding them hostage to the law: “You can’t leave me. You took a vow. I can do what I want and you have to put up with it”) to join you in repenting of this sin, exposiing it where it exists, and starting a reformation in the church. The church should always be reforming, and here is where it is needed today.
Then divorce will be a moot point, because not a woman in this forum WANTS a divorce! That is why we are here! That is why we have put up with our husband’s iniquities (hidden, unconfessed sin) for, in many cases, over 30 years. I think it’s time to put the burden on the shoulders where it squarely belongs: the oppressors who have made peace with their sin, not on the oppressed who need relief.
Jesus’s harshest words were directed at people who think like you do.
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.”
You want to keep marriages together James? Then get out there and get to work on the problem. Not the effects of the problem. Go after the perpetrator, not the victims. You will learn Christ in the process.
I am not even sure why we are having this conversation. Apparently, according to James, we vowed at the altar to ‘always live in the same house with each other’. That’s all. Oh, and make sure to have sex (James’ insistence that it was an obligation no matter what, several posts back), even if it feels like rape and prostitution. NO! The vow was to leave and cleave, to love and cherish. If that vow is broken, it’s broken. Walking out the door for the physical and/or spiritual and emotional safety of you and your children is not breaking the vow. If the guy was burning that house down around you, you would run out the door.
Please read the following, for scripture:
http://www.bethinking.org/bible/bible-scandals/5-marital-abuse
I’m sure, though, that James will not read it, because he probably doesn’t like the writer, as he has said with the other several writers we have referred him to.
I’m thinking that in the Bible times, people lived in much closer community than we do in ‘rugged individualism’ America, and that the Jews and Christians of the time would never have tolerated this stuff…..the guy would have been caught and straightened out or kicked out right from the start………or seen to drop dead (Annanias) . Oh, and Sapphira died too……for submitting to him and not speaking up…..for being afraid of his repercussions if she didn’t obey God rather than man…….oh dear!!
“I think the scribes and teachers of the law in Jesus day would be firmly on your side, but I don’t think Jesus would.”
Are you serious?!
Look, you and I don’t have to agree. But the name calling, the Ad. Hominem attacks, the demonization of me and my opinion, blaming me (as if I am the cause of all the horrible things that women in this world have to endure) is just a sign that you aren’t really all that sure that the bible supports your position and so all you have left is an unbridled attack on me as a person.
Is the historical fact that the Pharisees actually sided with you on divorce (believing in divorce for any cause) lost on you?
I am starting to see the pattern. When I ask for biblical substantiation for a point, and none can be found, one of the favorite smokescreen tactics I have seen here has been the lightning fast sprint to claim the moral high ground and start calling those who actually want to see some biblical support, pharisees, or legalists or just plain mean.
Nice…..
That sure does shut down a conversation doesn’t it?
Nevermind the fact that the Pharisees didn’t care to listen to Jesus word’s and I am all but begging you all to actually consider them.
If you want to claim that Jesus stands with you and against me, THEN WHY WON’T YOU LISTEN TO WHAT JESUS HAS ALREADY SAID?
I believe in the historical Jesus, the one who said Matthew 18, and Matthew 9:3-6.
Not an imaginary Jesus who just comes along and affirms you and validates you even if you basically choose to ignore what He says.
I do think it’s almost priceless that you are calling me a pharisee for urging you to consider God’s word given that Connie “pulled the pharisee” card on you in the last blog conversation.
“About the Aleea question (sorry, Aleea, I’m going to talk about you a bit), I’d rather an honest seeker than a dishonest Pharisee who thinks they have it all figured out and then uses that knowledge to oppress the already oppressed (and most of us have run into far too many of those).”
At least Connie gave you the out of saying she wasn’t specifically referring to you.
Forget that the Pharisees historically agreed with you on the permanence of marriage.
Forget that the scribes and teachers of the law were making up rules instead of adhering to the word of God.
Forget the fact that Jesus has already weighed in the topic and he just doesn’t support your position.
“You are like a blind guide, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel.”
That’s easy to say, but not as easy to prove. And unfortunately your hasty, angry reply has made you a false witness.
Here are the facts about me.
1. My wife and I have taken in an abused family and her children when she had to leave her home. The 8 of us, my family and hers, lived in our three bedroom home with one bathroom for 3 months.
What have YOU done, apart from claim the moral high ground and look down your nose at your’s truly?
Through the minstry of our church that family is together again.
2. My wife and I routinely give generously to a fund our church has set aside specifically to help widows, orphans and abused women.
3. I counsel men, some of which have been abusive, and when I counsel them I do so from the word of God. It’s remarkable to see these men embrace the truth, genuinely repent, humbly ask for forgiveness and see thier families restored.
4. I continued to press for discipline for a man who was abusive toward his wife despite some pressure to sweep the whole thing under the rug because he was a “big giver.” He was eventually put out of the church and then threatened to sue me personally for defamation of character.
Your angry diatribe missed its mark.
James, I have worked with church leaders and pastors who have done exactly as you talk about and it has worked out very well. I just got an e-mail from a woman whose husband I had worked with for over 2 years – mandated by his church leadership, whose elder sat in on every counseling session with him. It was beautiful. He’s doing better. I would love it if every church and pastor and leadership worked like the BIble says they should. Sadly most do not. Where does that leave an abused spouse? To fend for herself. To find another church/pastor who will advocate for her, help her, confront her spouse and hopefully put the appropriate pressure to bring him to repentance. That is always the best choice, however there are times when the spouse refuses to repent AND continues the abuse. For those women I believe there are other options. You do not. We can disagree here. But it’s not okay on my blog to say there is only one way – your way, to view the Scriptures.
James, I’d like to refer you to Gary Thomas’s blog, the author of Sacred Marriage. Maybe you’ll be more open-hearted to him, since he is a he.
http://www.garythomas.com/goddoesntcareaboutshells/
http://www.garythomas.com/marital-abuse/
http://www.garythomas.com/enough-enough/
T.L, Lori too
I so agree T.L with your wisdom here! Well written;)
“So while I will always hope for a miracle for him, I will not make my decisions for me based on that. I will make them based on moving forward with Christ. The miracle may or may not come. But my obedience in walking loyally to Christ instead of my husband is what I am responsible for; and that is what my focus is.”
This IS what being focused on Him looks like. Many have used your illustration in abusive dynamics to settle in with their circumstances, this still contributing to an abusive environment and mindset for many to be influenced by and imprinted early in children. I was one~ my mom’s belief was avoid feeling bad, sad, or scared… but her misquided belief cost her children the most. Thus continuing the cycle and contributing to the epidemic😩
You don’t need to add anything to the cross, it was complete!
Now, for anyone who might misinterpret that statement being justified by Christ does ‘not’ mean He doesn’t call us toward growing and changing.
He saved us…to change us!
Praise God for you!
So thankful for you ladies🌷
Rose, 🌷
I’m so sorry for the pain and shock of all of what your experiencing.
I agree with the other comments that this is seriously wrong.
Sometimes it’s easy to go along and learn coping skills of how to survive in such a toxic traumatizing place. (Of all places the sacredness and safety of your home)
You are need of great support and healing.
Obviously your separated given your situation.
My heart goes out to you Rose. But know you can ask God to give you wisdom and strength each day!
I’m not saying I’m right, but my thought is you are dealing with layered addiction with your husband. He is enslaved!
His behaviors seem to be that of a true addict and his shame is ‘vile’ and damaging to your wellbeing.
I’m generalizing here but know these truths about addiction~ I don’t care what level of it is or what the type is.
Addicts need special care to deal with what they are so taken over by or stuck in.
Addicts don’t have reasonable thinking when they are fully entrenched.
You might see a hint of hope one second and all lost ability the next.
Addicts are addicted to pushing pain or uncomfort away at any cost. Loosing your family home, I’m so sorry!
I’m praying for you and hoping you will see any support here and get to some safety with other women and different counsel.
🙏
Dear Rose, My heart aches for you! It sounds to me like your “husband” is sociopathic. People like him have a way of presenting themselves to other people as being kind, rational, etc, but when you get behind closed doors, they will just as likely stab you in the back. They are very manipulative. That was the way with our adopted son, who had attachment disorder. No conscience. Perhaps what you need is coaching with Leslie, or at least to find a local counselor who will guide you properly. Have you read any of Leslie’s books? The one called The Emotionally Destructive Marriage will be very helpful. Frankly, if I were in your shoes, with the kind of “advice” you have been getting through your church, I might start looking for a different one. I believe that the Lord is much more merciful than many believers are. Jesus was not so legalistic. When asked about divorce, Jesus spoke about adultery, but I sometimes wonder if infidelity is more than simply having sex outside of marriage. Your husband has been unfaithful to his marriage vows, too.
As Leslie pointed out recently, we have a healthy and valuable community on this blog. I wish for each one of us to keep communicating our stories and our testimonies of Gods Grace. But I must also as has already been said this week- becareful not to get distracted from this healthy community by those who want us to defend our position. One of the first things I learned in my counseling sessions, was I no longer needed to defend myself. Amen.
So healthy, Robin! I support you in that!
Too true. Truth prevails!! I have found it interesting to hear things said in my defence when allegations of being an unsupportive wife had been made, just because I decided to no longer go along with control and manipulation. I had considered waiting till my children were grown and left home but decided I owe no one but God an explanation and the toxic environment being detrimental to the children’s well being was motivating enough to draw a line. I am confident in Christ to no longer be subject to oppression and seeming slow death!
Leslie’s response to consequences has been very empowering for me especially the reference to Proverbs 19:19 and my first love is Christ,, every relationship must draw me closer to Him not farther.
I have been pondering this post and comments for a few days and finally have time to organize my thoughts, and you ladies have helped to do that. I’ve actually taken notes of the gems of wisdom here. Thank you, ALL for sharing your wisdom gained through hardship. Know that God is using it for good! =o)
Piggybacking on the last blog on confusion – I think I was hope shifting thinking an ultimatum would snap h out of his deceptive mindset, help him to take responsibility, and be a humble person. Did it shake him – yes. Shock him – definitely- still doesn’t grasp the damage and wants me to understand he never did it on purpose as if that makes the damage less. I guess that’s the clue that there is deep deception, deeply rooted wrong thinking and attitudes.
Changed behavior…sort of. He is trying harder than ever to engage, but said he’s so hurt when some little thing he does is HUGE to him but is a crumb to us (me and the 5 children at home).
My clue that I’m hope shifting is that my stomachaches are back, which I had several yrs ago (5-6) when things started to get real bad, and I had to be real that h did not want to do the work to be the Christian he claimed to be…he just wanted to look the part and have all be perfect allowing me to take all care of the children. Then the anger started. And silent angry (control) is aweful.
I digress . . . Now 16 days after the ultimatum (repent or move out is what 2 pastors and I said) I still think there’s much resistence. My hope is God can reach is heart, but I have little hope that h will allow God to break him of his pride, etc. and stick with it long term. He is seeing a counselor, as am I and 2 sons as they don’t trust dad to not be angry, but it’s yet to be seen how that progresses.
He is still calling himself the toxin in our home, so how long do I wait for fruit of true repentance that he claims? In 3mo or 6mo if we still can’t trust him, …is that the point we need therapeutic separation for him to detox so he doesn’t continue to poison us? I’m quite concerned about my 13 and 15yo boys. I want to stop this generational bondage.
“So while I will always hope for a miracle for him, I will not make my decisions for me based on that. I will make them based on moving forward with Christ. The miracle may or may not come. But my obedience in walking loyally to Christ instead of my husband is what I am responsible for; and that is what my focus is.” This is where I think I am most of the time . . . But how to know what’s loyal to Christ? Would healing apart be the most loving for all of us, or attempting to work together…which he’s rarely done, and as Aly said “correction feels like criticism” to him, and so does a “wrong” look, etc. Feelings like I’m the mother having to help him through every little thing . . . while I’m trying to heal myself and guide my children. Fheww somethings got it give . . . I can not do all this.
Hi Vanessa, (is the Against the grain Vanessa?)
I am just responding to say my heart goes out to you and your circumstances. Your question: “Would healing apart be the most loving for all of us, or attempting to work together?” Ohhhh, such a tough decision to make and I hear your heart for your sons as well. The decision does very definitely affect your children. I wish I knew what to tell you, but I don’t. I hope someone with more experience can lend a guiding voice?
I am praying the Lord guide you with clarity and from the surety of His word.
Something DOES have to give and it sounds like you are not getting the help you need from h.
Prayers for you.
Thanks, Lori. I would have responded earlier, but couldn’t find your post after it came through my email. Yep – Against The Grain I am :/
Your words are kind and sweet. It is a tough spot. Grey areas always are. He’s changed behavior, going to church again, engaging with me and the children more, no anger, yet . . . is there really humility? Sorry, contrition, responsibility for what he’s done? I don’t see it. Nor do I think that attitudes and beliefs that have cause the bad behavior are gone . . . so, how long can someone “fake it”? I think he did this for YEARS but now that people (pastors) are watching him – although they’re watching for behavior which they told him to change (which CAN be a sign of change…or not).
SO, right or wrong, since children are usually pretty good judges of character and can smell hypocrisy a mile away . . . I’m using them as ONE of the factors in true change. Are they still afraid of him and all that encompasses – as I think my trust will take longer to rebuild than theirs.
These are things I will be talking to by counselor about . . . and a plan of action with measurable change, etc.
So very thankful for all the ladies here – MUCH wisdom to ponder and care to soak in. 😀
James,
Every bit of twisted information above is why you are where you are.
Your responses reveal you are a repeat offender of truth with motives of self!
Lori ~ thank you for all of your posted commentary on Gal 6. 😉
Your words:
“I think this is vitally important because I see, post, after post after post, of women encouraging other women to consider separation and divorce.”
That can’t be further from the truth..
I am married and many things and people God used to save our marriage.. Praise God!
I have never encouraged any woman to separate and or divorce.
I have ‘tried to’ encouraged women by sharing my story and experience and I am very pro covenant marriage and I know some of the lengths it takes being married to a ‘convenient spouse mindset’ for many years.
James, your biblical position on covenant marriage seems ‘quite convenient’ not fooling me.
Praying for truth for you.
Your words: refer to James words only
Aly
The following is simply an Ad Hominem attack:
“Your responses reveal you are a repeat offender of truth with motives of self!”
This is just name calling.
Demonizing me doesn’t prove whatever point you were hoping to make.
Thank you so much Lori for your posting and bringing an additional example.
I will take more time digesting and certainly try to understand that better with accuracy.
😊
T.L.
So so agree with this!
Thank you so much for writing and expressing the truth to and picture of what these roles are originally designed for and certainly the example even after our broken world.
Personally, I’ll reconsider James writings in case I’ve missed something, but I didn’t take away sincereity. I don’t see any compassion and care for any of these painful journeys which tells me he is severly insensitive and not at all about being used by God for the good of both parties to be restored to a healthy marriage.
I perceive he has a broken heart from a long time ago (possibly his own parents divorce)
That’s painful if it were the case.
I’ll pray for him.
Thank you so much, Leslie for the time and energy you have devoted to this forum. It is much more liberating with the word of God than a many churches I know will offer upholding societal expectations and unscriptural values.
I feel pain reading postings here as it resonates with me. I dip in and out with having so much to juggle as a result of a controlling relationship.
I had married within a year of meeting my husband having initially been reluctant with seeing draconian traits. He upheld the word and any disagreement was resolved in the light of the word. Anger was doubtless a problem which became more prominent as financial stresses set in, with worsening emotional abuse which he denied with the explanation of never being physically sbusive. Reference to the word was said to be not wanting to use my brain!
I concluded not only was my life ticking away with dreams unfulfilled but my children were unhappy describing us being under a dictatorship. I kept thinking of what a friend said in surprise after he had reported me for wanting to desert him, “God has called us to freedom” yet I felt enslaved. I thought each tick of the clock draws me nearer to the end when I would have to give an individual account to God, not as a married woman but account for my God given purpose in life. Who would I say I had allowed to spend my life? I recalled what I often told my husband that God does not control and even though He knows rejecting Christ results in eternal damnation, His nature being Love He does not force and allows us to make a choice. No man should therefore attempt to control, intimidate or manipulate another, especially a wife God commands him to live that his prayers be not hindered.
I decided to walk in the liberty Christ has secured for me- it had been a challenge with resistance from my husband who resorted to manipulative schemes and refusing counsel from various people he reported to. He has apparently made a choice not to change. I have decided to live a meaningful life and give up anything that gets in the way of my relationship with God, knowing loving anyone more than Christ makes me unworthy of His kingdom, my heart’s desire – righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, God is love, there is no fear in love!
I have read and re-read Leslie’s response on consequences, it is empowering for me, helped me maintain my stand based on the word whilst choosing not to discuss with anyone anymore till I came to a clear word based conclusion. I am there now, very much at peace and the children happier too. He has agreed to my request of calling it quits and no animosity please. Details are being worked out and I am holding unto God all the way, knowing that He who sees the heart sees my decision is rooted in love for Him.
It has not been an easy journey and I do not doubt that challenges will come but I am confident that God will prove Hknself strong on my behalf and even this part of my life will bring glory to Him, comforting others with the comfort with which I have been comforted and helping others to be free from this often unseen shacles of control that leave many in a lifetime of unseen pain and deprivation of God given liberty!
T.L.
I agree with your comments and what’s been exposed here.
I’m pretty sure he counsels couples in the church.
He defends in a label or more a ‘marital status identity’ caring little for what it is SACREDLY called to represent!
These marriages that are left unhealed due to poor biblical understanding ..but remain together unhealthily for the sake of the ‘marital status’ that doesn’t not Glorify God and (the unrepentant one or 2 sometimes) are contributing to the apathetic church growth and the communities around making them sicker.?
Thankfully there are healthy church homes out there with people getting healthy and wanting to grow in relationship with Him and others~ you have to search and find them. 🌈
That type of thinking actually makes an idol of marriage. They are bowing at the feet of an institution, and laying on people’s shoulders a burden that even they are not able or willing to bear. They would remove a woman for physical abuse, but not emotional? Really??? Why should she not ‘suffer for the Lord’ then physically too? Sounds like a double standard to me. And that verse in Malachi, ‘God hates divorce’ is only translated that way in one version, and it is taken way out of context. He hates the cruelty of the men toward their women, causing them to have to divorce.
That kind of thinking actually causes more divorce, because it enables evil.
I agree Aly and Connie!
James,
Let me clear any confusion with my comment:
I did not save my marriage~ but God in me and God in others made life very uncomfortable for him to continue in his reasoning and especially in his comforts and idolatry;)
What this means.. is God built the courage and the healthy things in me to be a healthier partner for him. My obedience and my desire to please the Lord and His ways were greater than pleasing an immature undeveloped husband that was following many of the lost men in our culture.
Because they attend church and or men’s groups doesn’t mean they are exactly following Christ. Some are and I believe many are not and thus we have a big problem in the church.
Don’t worry it’s getting exposed! Is God exposing.. yes! Is he using people to expose it, yes;)
My h… He thought he was following Christ by following a lost professing Christian saved man (men). Plenty of atta boys;) and superficial relationships there.
If a man is not convicted by God as God is his authority, and does not respect the authority in the church leadership for rebuking and or discipline, what’s your next option? I mean really what punishment is the church really able to inforce to make him uncomfortable and come to his senses? If he doesn’t even have respect for the men willing to stand up to his bad behavior, do you think he’s going to go home and respect his wife? His children?
If it’s all about God doing the change (solely) then why the active discipline option in the church.. why is that even needed?
I say (solely) not that God doesn’t ‘completely’ do it, but He uses vessels~ His people in relationship with him. Did Joshua conquer Jericho? No! God did! And in doing that he used people.
Was Joshua obedient to God? Yes!
Goodness I believe and think waiting on God is ‘pivotal’ and necessary in many areas.., but I also see in biblical truth that after prayer, biblical discernment, biblical teachings, godly counsel of many…
ACTION in His people to participate in His Glory!
Some people not all, and. …Not all all circumstances are apples to apples, but they get too scared, confused and frozen on ‘waiting on God’.., when God has already spoken and given direction.
What’s your purpose here James? Why are you involved at all in these situations?
Why did Jesus have disciples?
God doesn’t need any of us for His will to come about! But in His economy and design he uses them for His glory.
James,
What comes from the mouth reveals the heart.
And if you think that myself or others don’t see your ‘double standard’ thinking, rethink and take your argument to the Lord.
God bless you and praying for the ladies that are struggling with such difficult circumstances.
Aly,
“Because they attend church and or men’s groups doesn’t mean they are exactly following Christ. Some are and I believe many are not and thus we have a big problem in the church.”
The same is true of women. We cannot assume that all women who come to women’s groups are following Christ. Sin is not a gender specific trait.
“If a man is not convicted by God as God is his authority, and does not respect the authority in the church leadership for rebuking and or discipline, what’s your next option?”
That’s really not my call, is it? Neither is it yours. I have a great deal of compassion for women who have faithfully followed the Matthew 18 process to the end only to see their husbands put out of the church rather than repent. Some of those women choose to keep their households together and I don’t’ think they deserve to be treated as if their choice is somehow an egregious sin against all women everywhere, ergo my comments to Mineral. I understand that this choice may not meet the approval of all of the women here but I don’t think they deserve the criticisms they receive. And I know that they feel criticized because more than one woman has expressed that they feel criticized on this blog for their choice.
I also understand that some situations are just far too toxic to expect a wife and her children to endure and so they separate for the sake of sanity and safety. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NEVER CRITICISED ANY WOMAN FOR MAKING THIS CHOICE!
I challenge you or anyone else to show me where I have.
I think communication would go a whole lot better if people would stop armchair psychoanalyzing me (like you did when you brought up my parents divorce…. WAAAAAAAAAAAYYYY OUT OF LINE).
Weaponizing a person’s painful past is a very cruel thing to do, Aly.
I also think that communication would go much smoother is people would stop putting words in my mouth and then condemning me for what I didn’t say, or projecting thoughts on to me that I don’t actually think and then judging me for thinking them.
Case in point, your whole investigation as to why I only quoted two verses in Galatians. Your prognostications as to why were so off base they weren’t even in the ballpark anymore.
Next time you want to know why I said something, just ask.
If only your failed attempts to read my mind and judge my heart were limited to this. You have routinely attempt to diagnose my heart.
PLEASE STOP!
You don’t know me, it is presumptive to pretend that you know me well enough to diagnose my thoughts or my heart and it’s just plain rude to tell me what I should do based on your erroneous, unprofessional, fallacious analysis.
To your point about consequences changing a husband; if the church’s discipline, which is ordained by God in Matthew 18 won’t bring about heart change, then what makes you think the boundaries and consequences of a wife (which aren’t ordained by God) is going to bring about heart change?
They may get a husband to “fake it” so that he can get what he wants out of the relationship but his heart won’t change because of “boundaries” or “consequences” or any other psychological principle stolen from the non-Christian psychoanalytic community and imported into Christianity with the accompanying bible verses ripped out of context to be used as prooftexts (like Galatians 6:7 which has precisely nothing to do with boundaries and consequences in its original context).
If what you want is a husband who fakes it, boundaries will work just fine.
You are 100% accurate in saying that God works through people. He absolutely does. Joshua was a fine example. God worked through Joshua because Joshua was OBEDIENT TO THE WORD OF THE LORD. Joshua didn’t courageously follow his own heart or listen to his own gut or trust his own instincts (honestly, I think these are terrible words of advice as our guts are often wrong, our instincts are tainted by sin and our hearts are deceitfully wicked). Both Joshua and Caleb were commended while the rest of the older generation died in the desert because Joshua and Caleb believed the expressed Word of God while the rest followed their guts, their hearts and their instincts.
Which is why I routinely ask for substantiating BIBLE VERSES.
Show me a bible verse that says that a woman is to separate from her unrepentant husband in order to provide enough pain to change his heart and the discussion is over.
Show me a verse in the bible that says that a wife’s job is to introduce sufficent pain into the relationship to make her husband uncomfortable enough to choose repentance and I’ll issue a complete and total retraction.
But the problem is that God is not the originator of these ideas. Edward Lee Thorndike popularized that in his “Law of affect.” And B.F. Skinner advanced on it. These are the principles of unregenerate men. I choose the word of God.
“What’s your purpose here James?”
To learn and contribute, much like everyone else.
How many women have you asked this question to?
“Why are you involved at all in these situations?”
In this situation, it was to express appreciation and encouragement for Mineral and her devotion to the word of God.
Why have you intrusively taken it upon yourself to comment on my heart and my past?
“Why did Jesus have disciples?”
So that they could be sent out to teach the nations the word of God, not the principles of men.
James, I truly think you mean well but pay attention to how you are triggered by the other women in this blog. It is not a woman’s job to introduce sufficient pain in the marriage to make her husband repent, but it is her job to be his Biblical helpmate. How you define that makes a lot of difference. Is she to speak the truth, not pretend, not placate when he is destructive or deceitful and whatever fallout of that choice is part of her and his “suffering”? Or is she to just prop her husband up, enable him to continue to be self-deceptive, abusive, ungodly and keep the marriage together at all costs and at any price? You and I may disagree on this, but I think she is to stop the pretense. Speak the truth. And allow the natural consequences of his behaviors and actions bring the pain God intended to wake him up to his foolish, destructive ways. And if that does not work, her options are to stay well, OR to leave well. That is her choice and for each woman it may look different.
James,
What TL proposed about you possible misrepresenting statements or misunderstanding things is quite evident even in these discussions and in writing.
Given your above comments:
Who said “I saved my marriage by …” then you went on to declare it a bombastic statement.
If this was directed at me (Aly) I responded earlier with more clarity because I couldn’t find my post.
But I did!
Here it is below: RE read it and see your error and especially your Straw Man arguments and your ‘Red Herrings’ are in nature destructive to your position.
This was my comment:
“I am a voice of radical obedience and my marriage was Saved!
My husband is blessed by my courage (from the Lord) that I stood up to his manipulation and denial. He’s free from his bondage of control tactics and counterfeit idols.
James, your comments continue to reveal to me an past unhealed heart,
I’ll pray that you get the proper care for your wounds.
God bless;)
“Who said “I saved my marriage by …” then you went on to declare it a bombastic statement.”
Aly,
That wasn’t a comment directed at you. Please stop reading yourself into my comments directed towards others. A woman my wife is counseling said she bought a book on Kindle entitled “how I saved my marriage.” Anyone who claims to have said their marriage is making a bombastic statement, don’t you think?
To my knowledge, you didn’t say that you saved your marriage, you said that you were a example of radical obedience. I replied with “praise the Lord.”
Incidentally that was another instance in which you personalized a comment that wasn’t about you, it was said to Mineral.
Why do keep personalizing comments I make to others?
“James, your comments continue to reveal to me an past unhealed heart,”
Your assessments of my heart just aren’t wanted.
So please, stop minding my business.
Rose, I understand and hear your every word. You are not ranting you are venting the evil you have lived in and we on this site want to hear your story and help u heal. Praying for you!!
PS don’t beg him anymore!!! It continues the cycle of abuse. Stand up for yourself and envision Jesus standing right with you!!!!!
You are not rambling at all! You are speaking truth to your heart and your worth.
You are a treasure 💖 not an object or role.
Rose,
I am so sorry for what you are in right now and what tough decisions you are having to make.
It’s very hard when all we want is the best for both and we are emotionally intrenched.
This feels very much like a power issue, maybe the other ladies can comment given their separation that in some cases lead to repentance and in other cases brought divorce as the outcome of one not willing or repentive.
To me, it seems your h is bonded to his power position. This is not ok, nor biblical.
I feel his behavior is actually a very clear blessing!
Here’s why…
Your words:
” I have been seperated from my husband since dec 1. During this time, he has shown no remorse or repentance. He remains nasty, harsh, bitter, angry and selfish. Still demanding his way.”
This is better than the roller coaster of someone manipulating repentance.
Trust me!!
See Patrick D videos online he goes into what
Forgiveness and repentance are and what they posture!
If someone is asking for forgiveness, you will see humility (but be careful that can be fake)
But regardless of the humility you will see
CONDTRITION
Meaning .. ‘ I have no rights, I’ve lost my position to have a say so…I’m the one in the wrong because of my behavior/ and or betrayals.’
Contrition isn’t just an emotional expression it is very much a posture in the broken relationship.
When husbands like your own are still battling for their old position they are in the way of themselves.
They are unrepentive and unwilling to seek authentic reconciliation.
They still are wanting the relationship by their standards.
I consider these behaviors and postures a blessing…. because it gives clarity of peace when we can be so torn emotionally as what to do next.
Usually these individuals are very incaple of having a posture of mutuality in ‘any relationship’ and therefore struggle seeing their beliefs and protective behavior.
I will pray for inner strength and Peace in your heart as you move forward in your journey.💖
Aly – Thanks for this post as I really needed it.
“This is better than the roller coaster of someone manipulating repentance. Trust me!!”
I’m copying many parts of your posts and making my own file of them as they clearly say what I’m feeling/seeing/experiencing and unable to put into words. My h tows the line…he does what others say he should “do” to repair the relationship…act and do and the repentance/responsibility, etc. will come . . . but I think this is highly unlikely with the deep rooted beliefs he has as you’ve described.
“When husbands like yours are still battling for their old position they are in the way of themselves.
They are unrepentant and unwilling to seek authentic reconciliation.
They still are wanting the relationship by their standards.
Usually these individuals are very incapable of having a posture of mutuality in ‘any relationship’ and therefore struggle seeing their beliefs and protective behavior.” This is dead on what I see even though he doesn’t “feel” this way in his heart. Even our pastor has told him that he is VERY self deceived.
So, this leaves me second guessing myself as to how long he gets to “prove” himself since the ultimatum (repent or leave) was over 2 weeks ago. 3mo? 6mo? If we still can’t trust his anger and my children are still afraid, then there’s no healing happening for us and no true repentance and humility on his part.
I’m curious, Aly, in your situation did you see humility/responsibility/contrition right away, or was it more of a process for your h? Was there a point where you “knew” that you didn’t need to separate? I know there’s no cookie cutter way or timeline . . . I’m just curious. I’m also cautious with our pastors as even though they agreed and laid out the ultimatum . . . I strongly sense through teaching that the marriage institute is nearly an idol, and God hates divorce is taken out of its context a bit.
______
I had posted a few days ago about my hope shifting, etc. but changed my name to just Vanessa…and I guess it’s waiting approval 🙂 and there’s more info in there. I’ll leave this one so it’s posted right away.
Thanks again Aly.
I agree. I genuine humble person will exhibit gratitude that they even get a second chance, without demands that it be a certain way or on a timetable.
I’m just wondering if any of the rest of you have considered whether ‘Mineral’ is really a woman writing, or a man posing and trying to get a rise out of us…….and for other reasons…….?
We don’t know and let’s not speculate. Mineral is entitled her her point of view.
You’re right, Leslie, and I’m very sorry I did that. I need to be more prayerful when triggered, that’s for sure.
And she is definitely entitled to her view, where I was for the longest time, too, truly believing it was good and right.
Connie,
Such a good question..,
It’s passed by my mind quickly but when I read her position of how she has convinced herself this is her ‘cross to bare’ so to speak… it is almost identical to what I hear on a consistent basis from women in the church community….and usually those women are teaching the younger women those beliefs and trying to make them feel better about the marital condition rather than trying to help the marriage get healthier and more ‘Christlike’. It’s epidemic in our church communities.
My own Christian mother tried to indoctrinate me in that way of thinking, and it just brought me to a place of not being the healthiest mom role and especially wife role for my children…they were absorbing the dynamic.
It was conflicting and duplicit to my Christian beliefs wanting to revear and love the Lord.
My mother was then deciding that position by rationalizing and justifying unhealthy behavior out of her unhealed places that she was unwilling to face and or expose. She continued to praise Christ for her faith state.. when it was a fear state. She is now reaping the cost of it later in life and the contribution of generational sin and patterns. She still fears man over Him.
For me, I’m free and having abundance through God’s design in my home. my husband and children are blessed by not giving into someone else’s denial.
Hi Against the Grain, Vanessa;)
I so hear your heart it’s such a painful place and emotional roller coaster of grief in a fragmented way, is the best I can describe.
My hope is to be a blessing of comfort to you in a very stressed environment.
I’m going to come back to this to reply more but here is some tactical things that helped me see where my cycle was.
I was tired of being blamed for a dynamic that I was clearly involved in but was the only one willing to peer closer.
My h can ‘see now’ how destructive his thinking was which contributed to his behavior. He would have divorced himself sooner if that was possible … it was😜 especially as we look at Christ and our calling.
He developed ‘healthy insight’ overtime. He had insight but only how to control, self protect and manipulate the dynamic of power… this was a coping skill that took time to archeological find!
How self sabatoging right?
I mean who reacts in such ways …let’s say like
(Tephalon) (sp)
Ok tired is an understatement but I had a part of the cycle and I was a bit determined to get healthier regardless of the marital outcome.
Have you looked into trama bonding?
I can give certain things I required from my h to do…to better clarify.
Requirements were helpful ‘for me’ to assess his ability or non ability. False repentance reveals itself within a timeline or external things. (Counseling was only one pivotal essential part of the team)
We have had several forms of interventions at the same time ~ think of it as a person with medication for an illness or in the hospital.
If your pastors are correct and he is in deep denial and deceiving himself..
Will he consider that is a possibility of where he is?
Will he even ponder that thought?
My h needed deep intensive cognitive counseling to get his thought processes.
I needed lots of objectivity on the situation!!
My heart goes out to more than I can express because seriously this is such not a peaceful place to be, but God sees you.
And I hear you;)
.., more to respond to your questions.
Outstanding. You make an excellent point that sometimes the wise thing to do is GIVE UP HOPING. For many, this is too painful a reality just yet. But, hopefully, over time, they can realize that they are hoping for something that is never going to occur, and they can move on. I will share with my readers. Thanks!
Against the Grain,
You wrote;
“So, this leaves me second guessing myself as to how long he gets to “prove” himself since the ultimatum (repent or leave) was over 2 weeks ago. 3mo? 6mo?”
I’m trying to understand you question,
Are you saying he has repented in bad behavior,
He is to xyz interventions to address the behavior and the internal issues associated with ‘his anger’
If your saying he was given the choice but he hasn’t done anything repented and more interventions then why would he believe you are going to follow through?
Aly, I did NOT pull the Pharisee card on you, please know that, and I have no idea why I’ve been accused of that……..
and……Leslie and we have given many scriptures to back our stand, but apparently they don’t rate. Also, I learned years ago that if we pull only a verse here and there, we can justify anything, even homosexuality. That’s what the JWs and Mormons do, is use only one verse here and there, and it actually makes sense. We have to see the whole essence and heart of the Bible.
You are so right Connie and I’ve read and read the Bible and try as best I can to present the heart of God as I know him. Yes we can all take one verse like “Women should wear head coverings” or “Be silent” or “No divorce ever” and make a case about that. But if we read the entire Scripture we begin to see things differently. I am not a theologian, nor have I ever claimed to be. However, I have read good theologians who I respect who agree and disagree with my point of view. That is why no one can claim an edge on true TRUTH. When we get to heaven, I think we will all be surprised at the goodness, grace, and generosity of God. I think we will realize that we have been wrong on a lot of things and majored in the minor themes of what is relatively unimportant.
Against the Grain,
Do you have women support also, meaning a few strong friends in person that are there for you during such an emotional journey?
Your building your strength well by pondering and looking at what see in reality/ behavior besides what you wish for from h.
Sorry I’ve had to piece out your questions.
You wrote:
I’m curious, Aly, in your situation did you see humility/responsibility/contrition right away, or was it more of a process for your h?
It’s definitely a process, individual and yet together. Critical to have a team.
You mention your h’s anger as the problem..
Has he been asked what are you so angry at?
I don’t agree in His ways but I’m curious? Same as I would be with my children I guess.
Is his anger more in more of a reactive way? Or is it deeper ~ shame and identity/worth?
It has been said that usually under anger is hurt? Sadness? Or fear?
My h was all 3 and unresolved by many things~ he was not an angry person to us but he took his anger inward and then when I would try to connect he would flare all the defense tactics that were harmful to me.
Humility responsibility and contrition.
Humility is very difficult for someone who gets in the way of themselves.
For fakers.. they fake it and then the fruit reveals.
In time. All words… little action and consistent follow through
By fruit I mean their reactions and what type of behavior is consistent.
Was there a point where you “knew” that you didn’t need to separate?
Yes, pure contrition! But at that point I let our counselor weigh in heavily on this because I was so emotionally beat up and we had so many false starts of the process. The requirements grew substantially and he was taking full responsibility for the manipulation level.
I mean he’s ‘good’;) but he isn’t God;) that was supposed to be funny.
I think what was a big turning point for me was the ability to follow through with whatever I had required and the biggest point for him was he has underestimated my strength ~ mainly because he had gotten away with it for so long.. even in a counseling process.
In hindsight he never got away with it technically in fact it helped identify the core disease so he could get the best treatment!
I know there’s no cookie cutter way or timeline . . . I’m just curious. I’m also cautious with our pastors as even though they agreed and laid out the ultimatum . . . I strongly sense through teaching that the marriage institute is nearly an idol, and God hates divorce is taken out of its context a bit.
You are correct their isn’t a cookie cutter design but their are helpful guidelines that can help create safety.
I’m not for divorce and or separation and or a phony marriage label in Christ either or any of the marriage idols/conforms I’m for individuals receiving Christ perfect love and posturing their life through transformation (by him only)…giving an example to an amazing Lord we have and want to serve;)
Aly –
I so appreciate the road you’ve traveled and that you’re willing to share it with us.
You asked: “Do you have women support also, meaning a few strong friends in person that are there for you during such an emotional journey?” Thankfully, yes! A few that are supportive, encouraging, and one in particular who has come through the addiction of porn with her h – she is the one really saying we need a plan with measurable goals, and I agree!
Trauma Bonding? – WOW I just looked that up…pretty closely related for his abuse towards me with misuse of fear and sex (the sex feelings I knew had to be related when 2yrs ago he began getting angry over no sex during my monthly cycle . . .) very interesting. This could also describe him with his dad . . . such over the top respect/loyalty yet disdain because of the abuse.
H was emotionally, mentally, and passive/aggressive verbally abused by his father, and STILL a victim in his mind (although he doesn’t think so). A child in his father’s house still trying to gain acceptance is what our counseling pastor concluded. Huh, same thing he has been doing. The last few days he’s touted and tried to excuse and blame shift with “none of what I’ve done has been on purpose”. Although I’m not even sure he understands “what” he has done specifically to oppress and abuse us emotionally, mentally, or spiritually. Finally after the 3rd time of this comment I pointed out that his dad’s abuse wasn’t intentional either and it doesn’t make his pain any less. I hope that’s the last of that excuse.
He has had better behavior since the ultimatum – he’s a great one for running away so he’s been engaging with me and children more, trying to be more considerate, little to no anger or extreme irritation. You asked about source of anger – His anger is deep – shame and lack of identity (who he is in Christ) as he still thinks of himself as the disappointment his dad portrayed he is. Hurt, sadness and fear all 3 are his anger. (see below about his dad)
Honestly this is the part we (me and kids) don’t trust. He’s suppressed his anger before and been “nice” for a season, but when the root of hurt, bitterness, etc. has not been dealt with and healed by the Great Physician…it will return.
“Will he consider that deep denial and deception is where he is? Will he even ponder the thought?” He is such a follower, lacking in many decision making skills, always second guessing even the smallest of decision…the confusion that comes from his own abuse and victim of his dad. So, when a counselor tells him something he usually just takes it . . . but it usually doesn’t go very deep to the heart of the issue. He’s quite passive/aggressive and does not like hard work. He claims to be a deep thinker, but he’s really a twisted thinker. Ponder it? Yes. Believing he’s self-deceived, believing lies with probably take much of me pointing it out to him. He lives with a mental/emotional filter that takes most things as criticism because his dad’s attitude/tone was always “you’re dumb, stupid, can’t do anything right, give up now you’ll never succeed . . .” So I can say something encouraging from my point of view and his filter twists it to be negative.
“Humility responsibility and contrition.
Humility is very difficult for someone who gets in the way of themselves. (He would even say this about himself – is he his own worst enemy?)
For fakers.. they fake it and then the fruit reveals.”
I think he can be quite good at faking it . . . and many things, even his Christian life. I know time will tell, but I wonder how much time?
Would you share with me 2 thinks:
What do you mean by: I needed lots of objectivity on the situation!!
Would you share with me what your guidelines, requirements, etc. were along the way to be ensure healing was progressing?
Connie,
I could be confused but I didn’t think you did.. that was James comment ~
He used my name..
he goes in deflection whirlwinds. He is now trying another tactic to get the spotlight off him because he has been found out. It’s typical.
But it failed for me.
Pretty sure you and I have had some similar thinking given these posts. Maybe I missed something you wrote to me?
Blessings and strength to you;)
He has never stated or freeing gave info info about coming from a divorced home, and somehow the evidence in his words reveal his pain.
This is a lie. I have disclosed many times that I come from an abusive home where my mother eventually left my father because of his physical abuse of my mother and us kids.
What is painful is your attempt to weaponize this information as a way to prove your point. I personally find that offensive and abusive.
I have asked you to please refrain from niggling in my past as if you were some uninvited counselor and you have disrespected that boundary and continue to weaponize my past.
“He is an abuser of words…” This is a false witness. Having an opinion contrary to yours in not abusive but making false accusations is abusive.
My words on this thread were meant to encourage a woman, those words have been repeatedly twisted and warped. You are all free to disagree with my perspective if you like. But the false accusations and the personal attacks need to stop.
“I hope his wife seeks courage to find the evidence of his betrayals.”
THIS IS SLANDER!
This is, plain and simple, character assassination, gossip, and slander.
Shame on you.
James, you do not need to scold others here. That is not necessary or appropriate. And those who have disparaged you sinfully I will also speak to. But you spend a lot of time here, and I’d love to know your purpose? As a pastor you must have many people who need you and sermons to prepare and a life to live. Yet you are faithful to respond to many of my blogs and many women who comment. So let us know why you are here? I think that is what confuses the women, and frankly me too. It feels to me like you feel it is your role to be the biblical watchdog on my blog and if you feel something is “off” you quickly label it “as unbiblical” or “prove it”.
I think you’d be much more likely to have a listening ear if you just said, “Hey help me understand why…or I know other people see things differently than I do but have you thought about……” Your dogmatic “my view is right and prove me wrong” does trigger so many here who have lived with a man who did this to them repeatedly, without mercy, without listening, without love. I have ready many of your responses where you were loving and kind so I do not think you are always this way, but there are times that you are. Please receive my feedback in the spirit is intended. You are welcome here, but please don’t come into this blog with the attitude that your view on scripture is the ONLY correct viewpoint.
Leslie,
As I said in my email to you via the contact form, I will no longer be posting on your blog. I am sure that this will come as a relief to some and perhaps to yourself. I would like to point out that your blog is simply not friendly to male participation.
While you have been personally cordial and friendly, there are women on this site whose primary reflex is to attack, blame, shame, and accuse when a man disagrees with them.
This is not just my own viewpoint, if you like you can go back in the comments and see posters like Henry who claims that a number of women were (his words) “man haters.”
As to my “dogmatics” I AM a trained theologian. I have two degrees (and M.Div and a TH.M in New Testament Studies) from ATS accredited evangelical seminaries. So while my confidence in my own theology may “trigger” some ladies whose husbands were also dogmatic about what the bible says, the difference is that I actually have undertaken a courses of study that give me a modicum of expertise. That doesn’t meant that I am always right, nor does it mean that I am unwilling to consider other interpretations. Indeed I am, which is why I ask for those who critique my understanding back up their critiques with theologically sound argument. While my credentials do not mean that my conclusions are above questioning it does mean, to be frank, that I don’t accept bad theological arguments just to make people feel better.
I am not “challenging people to prove me wrong” (as if this is some contest) I am asking for sound theology, and for biblical theological arguments that would provide me with sufficient reason to change my mind, “Your interpretation makes me feel bad” and “this other interpretation makes me feel better” are not sufficient reasons for me to abandon a studied interpretation of the Word of God and they ought not be the reasons why you accept some novel interpretations of God’s Word.
I don’t agree that biblical passages have a plethora of equally valid interpretations that are all worth hearing as long as they make us feel happy and validated, as if the bible were nothing more than a fortune cookie. The Divine Author has a clear intent for every word He said. What He said may well challenge some (it certainly challenges me), and it most certainly will offend some (Jesus claimed it would; Mt 11:6). But I would rather challenge some and offend others rather than offend God by being careless with His word or disingenuously affirming interpretations that are erroneous.
I take 2 Tim 2:15 very seriously, and I gently suggest that you should as well.
While you are quick to rebuke me for coming across as scolding, I feel it is necessary to protect myself from false accusations. These are not innocuously false accusations.
Aly has insinuated that because I come from a divorce home my wife should seek out evidence of alleged “betrayal.”
I quote here:
““I hope his wife seeks courage to find the evidence of his betrayals.”
Claiming that I have betrayed my wife is an evil lie that has the potential to damage not only my reputation but to harm my family and do real, permanent damage to me professionally.
If I were to insinuate that your husband should look into evidence of your “betrayals” (and for the record I am absolutely not suggesting that there is any evidence that you have betrayed your husband in any way, I am only exemplifying), I think you would respond firmly and I am sure that there would be an army of women rushing to defend your reputation.
I hope it isn’t lost on you that no one came to my defense, pointing out that those assertions violate Deut 19:15 and 1 Tim 5:19. As of yet, not even you have done what is necessary to set the record strait.
Consequently, I will make the same formal request that I have made via the contact form on your site.
I request that those comments be removed, and I now ask that the person who posted them retract those statements; admitting that they were statements made without just cause of evidence, and issue a written and public apology. If you continue to allow Aly to post without that apology, I can only assume it is because you refuse to see the gravity and harmfulness of those libelous claims.
Those statements are not only cruel, they meet the legal definition of libel. Those legally libelous statements are currently on your blog and I am formally requesting that, as the owner of this blog, and therefore the one legally responsible for the content on this blog, that you please see them removed immediately.
As a pastor, I am quite familiar with unjust criticism. I tolerate it nearly every week. But when a false, public declaration is written about me that has the potential to harm my family and damage me professionally then I am no longer willing to tolerate those unjust statements.
I will not be engaging in any further dialog on this blog. My only visibility on this blog will be to ensure that the legally libelous statements are removed and the apology I request is made.
If you would like to reach me directly I can be reached at 5pointpastor at gmail dot come.
James, I see that you are quick to want validation of libelous attack. I understand. Yet you are unwilling to understand that women who live under this same attack day after day, week after week have a just Biblical cause for setting boundaries or implementing consequences for this same kind of behavior in their marriage seems suspect. Why is it okay for you to set boundaries but not okay for them to set boundaries on this kind of attack? You see the negative effects of it? Yet somehow you think a woman is still suppose to hang in there when you are unwilling to hang in here in this blog because of the stress it creates. How come you can let go – freely – but you condemn a wife for letting go of much of the same?
Rose, I appreciate how scary the divorce looks from the side you are on. However, it will be your lawyer’s responsibility to get spousal support for you and the children. Also, I know two women who have been where you are: never worked, children to support, etc, and now, after the divorce, both are employed and free from abusive spouses. They are living healthy, God-honoring lives. Please don’t let fear govern your actions. God is in control and He loves you.. He will provide.
Am I the only one here who is tired of all the hostile back and forth over doctrinal issues, and even name-calling? I thought the purpose of this blog was to help and support one another, not to debate scriptural interpretations, and especially not to criticize each other. There has been some pretty ugly stuff going on, and it confuses those who are already confused and hurt and having a hard time deciding what to do. I appreciate those who are willing to share their experience and then encourage one another to go to the Lord and follow the inner peace. That’s all any of us can do.
No JoAnn, you are not the only one tired of it and I just want to remind you all that if we want to be Christ-like, we will treat each other honorably and with respect, even if we strongly disagree with one another. I am asking each of you, male and female to respond in CORE strength, with humility and respect for one another even if you do not agree with one another’s interpretation of Scripture or point of view. This is an essential character quality we must all work on if we want to reflect Christ – unity and the preservation of Unity through our love for one another – even those we disagree with. I don’t agree with everything people on this blog think, nor do you have to, but we can express our differences and our own interpretation of Scripture or our own point of view WITHOUT name calling, attacking, or disparaging one another. Please practice this on this blog.
My blog is uniquely different from others on this subject because I do not shut down opposing points of view. One of the reasons I do not do that is I believe we all need to know how to handle opposing points of view with dignity and strength, as well as humility and love. And, that is why I believe we have this amazing community here, which I will protect.
Leslie (and other dear sister’s)
Thank you, Leslie, for your wise guidance, insight, and correction. I took some time to back away, because I was being triggered by similar tactics that my theologically trained, ministry professional, self-promoting/self-protecting spouse falls into. I’ve had to fight hard to overcome passivity, and sometimes the pendulum swings to far in the opposite direction. Still working in the balance.
I’m sorry if I caused any of you sisters frustration or confusion by being sucked in to debates. This isn’t a place for theological debate. It’s a place for helping one another step into the light, and find our way to healing and deliverance from oppression and abuse. That happens when we face the truth about what is happening in our homes, refuse to pretend anymore, and decide to live in honesty before God. That will look different for each of us, and I respect each individual journey out of the darkness and into the light.
Thank you all for sharing your stories, and reaching out to one another.
Leslie, you are a gem of a mentor. We are all learning so much from you. A good thing that has come out of this disturbance to the healing community this is, is your example of how to confront and deal with such a disturbance in a godly way. Thank you.
TL,
Wow, what to say? The first thing that comes to mind is responding to your posts to James. I felt like I was watching some kind of Jedi warrior jousting for her life and the lives of other women here. Your insight into scripture was so deep and I can now understand your comment: “I took some time to back away, because I was being triggered by similar tactics that my theologically trained, ministry professional, self-promoting/self-protecting spouse falls into. I’ve had to fight hard to overcome passivity, and sometimes the pendulum swings to far in the opposite direction. Still working in the balance.”
It is easy for me to understand how you gained so much knowledge of scripture. Indeed, how necessary it has been for you given the personality and theologically trained h you live with. I am sorry for the reasons it has become necessary for you, but the fruit of your intense study of scripture is, I hope, worth the difficult reasons you had to come by it.
So much of what you shared really resonated with me and I found myself touched by your sound and passionate expulsion.
I have to admit though, because much of what you said resonated with me and moved me to feeling validated and even empowered by your words, I am confused as to what you are apologizing for?
I am not sure what was wrong with your post. Sincerely, I wish I had said what you said in many places.
Would you mind clarifying for me what you thought you did wrong?
Hi Lori,
Thank you for your words. I can’t say I didn’t smile when I read, “I felt like I was watching some kind of Jedi warrior jousting for her life and the lives of other women here.” Thanks for that. 🙂
I’m going to digress a bit from your question, and tell you a little more background: I wasn’t raised in a Christian home. I usually describe it as “nominally Catholic.” My parents were nice people. But my Dad was a closet addictive personality. My mom, very well-intentioned, and dealing with much more limited options in those days, chose to protect us kids by “acting normal,” and hiding her pain and troubles from us. We thought we had a really happy family. When addictions aren’t dealt with, they only get worse, of course, and when we got older, it could no longer be hidden. But we learned our lessons: avoid confrontation at any cost. Be nice. Carry on. Don’t make waves. Mind your own business.
When I married my husband, I quickly saw that he lived by a very different set of rules: push, argue, bully if necessary, to get what you want. And may the best/stronger/tougher person win. And that was always him. I was crushed in my marriage; my heart, my voice, my personhood. I remember early on telling my husband, “You should have been a lawyer! Even when I know I am right, you convince me I am wrong!” It was so painful and so confusing. Why was it more important to him to be right than to love and protect and nurture the heart of his wife and children?
Meanwhile, my soul was being nurtured by Him who loved me well. Sometimes I didn’t even know ibut it was happening as I prayed my anguished prayers and searched His Word for comfort. I felt like a failure most of the time, because I couldn’t measure up to my husband’s expectations…I wasn’t lovable to him. I was faulty, I was defective. But Christ revealed His deep, sustaining love for me, bit by bit, and then a dramatic revelation in my 40’s when I knew how loved I was, and knew I could never doubt his love again. His love helped me to grow strong in my eternal identity as his bride, His beloved. And His Word was the food that strengthened my soul.
Another revolution of sorts happened a few years ago when I was in utter misery over this dilemma of submitting to one’s husband, of “keeping one’s vows,” in an abusive marriage when one’s heart is screaming, “Something’s terribly wrong! This isn’t Christian marriage! One of us doesn’t seem to believe in a Christian lifestyle of walking in love, preferring one another, being completely humble and gentle, doing unto others…etc.” That’s when, in desperation, I went to a silent retreat for a week and sewed my tears in prayer, asked my questions of my Beloved, and began hearing His heart. One thing I remember clearly hearing from Him at that time as I walked in the hills: “I am with YOU. I stand with the oppressed.” He also led me to look at my own heart, taking “A fearless moral inventory” and confess to Him my patterns of sin. Passivity was number one. I asked forgiveness, and for the strength and grace to change. I wrote 40 pages in my journal, and a 10 or 12 page letter to my husband, confessing what God had shown me about myself and telling him that God had changed me–and he needed to know, because it would affect him. Then I told him all the things I would do from that day on, and all the things that I would not do. That I would submit to God, and not to him, until and unless he was safe to submit to. One aspect of his spiritual abuse was this: God has made me a generous, hospitable, merciful person. It’s part of my gifting and what gives me joy. My husband struggles with frugality to an unhealthy degree. I would tell him what I wanted to do: invite someone for a meal, bless someone with a gift, whatever. And 9 times out of ten, he would say no, he wasn’t comfortable with that, or we can’t afford it, or whatever. So, what God had put in my heart to do; that which was good and generous and godly, was suddenly sin: shut down because of his pathological need to control and save. And now, my God-led desire had become sin if I did it. Because I would be disobeying my husband, and I was commanded to submit to him. So twited and sad.
Later, I could see, that without realizing it, when I went through the process of the “moral inventory” and confessing my sins and sinful patterns, I had removed the log from my own eye. Suddenly things became so clear! I could finally understand what was wrong–what was going on in his inner motives. How he was being controlled by the enemy and in turn trying to control others. Suddenly I could see through him, and I couldn’t be manipulated anymore.
I feel sorry for the fellow who was harassing us on this blog. He is stuck in legalism and is satisfied with knowing about God instead of knowing his heart. I was also angry at him for disturbing and harassing us and trying to shove the law down our throats instead of walking in the grace and truth of Christ. It is a spirit of pharisee-ism that, when challenged, resorts to tooting one’s own horn, citing one’s qualifications, and demanding respect instead of winning it. I know these tactics, and I find them reprehensible.
Lori, what I felt the need to apologize for was this: a few women communicated frustration that debate was happening on this blog instead of sharing of stories, insight, giving encouragement and comfort. My (and other’s) refuting of him, rather than silencing him, gave him more of a platform. I certainly don’t want to do that.
So my apology was to the women who were annoyed, frustrated, or confused by the exchange. It’s not the purpose of the blog, and I want to honor the purpose of it, and honor Leslie.
Thanks for your kind words!
A non-believer can scan these posts and see there is no difference between us and the world. The griping, the passive aggressive comments, the snide personal attacks. I was hoping to find a site that would help eliminate noise in my life rather than add to it – this is not the place for me to be. James has his opinion like everyone else, if nobody likes it then don’t feed his response. I don’t agree with some of what he says, I think it’s more how he chooses his wording – that’s okay. It’s one’s choice to take offense. I’m not offended. What’s offensive is these threads become more a debate than aide, debate seldom looks for a solution and seldom goes anywhere. I’m looking elsewhere, somewhere.. with less noise.
Joann, you’re right, and I’m sorry I participated. I was hoping for a better outcome, but I should have known better.
TL
Thank you for sharing so much more of your story. Thank you for also sharing why you apologized: “My (and other’s) refuting of him, rather than silencing him, gave him more of a platform. I certainly don’t want to do that.”
I do see the line more clearly now. It was confusing to me because as I said, I appreciated and agreed with so much of what you said.
I am sad to say though, that I agree with you that it did seem to give him more platform.
Thank you for apologizing.
I think I remember Leslie’s words to me on the previous blog (that helped me so much) being something to the effect that the difference between someone who can be helped and someone who won’t be helped is in the ability to be honest in our admission of our failings. Didn’t see that in the fellow we refer to hear, but did see it in other women who accepted the correction.
I want very much to walk in the balance also and not harm with words, yet use them to validate myself, others and even be silent when necessary.
Learning by example here.
Thank you.
TL thank you for sharing! A lot of insights. I can’t understand why that poster is on here. He says he has compassion for women in abusive situations but no compassion comes forth. Only that the scriptures say no divorce or separation, and then to inform us of how he helps those in these situations.
Ann, that’s awesome, I’m so happy for u. It’s so important that each of us ask the Lord to guide us, as He will give each one a specific plan for our rescue, if that’s what we need. I’ll be eager to see your next steps.
Lori I am an open book. And love to share my story. As far as making money God just opened the windows of Heaven for me, after my husband was removed from the home. I was a part time piano teacher — and he filled my schedule to full time and with professional people who could afford my prices.
Also financially it truly was a miracle how everything came together for me. In my state there is a 50/50 law protecting the spouse after 20 years of marriage. So court ordered me to have half his retirement income which was quite generous. I also received 75 percent of retirement savings; partly because he had invested into Texas oil fields and some of it was his inheritance. So I settled on having our house (paid in full) retirement benefits listed above and let him have his investments and inheritance. But really DO TRUST GOD TO MOVE FOR YOU. It’s my biggest recommendation. God so wants us out of destructive relationships and as we stand up to sin and refuse to accept it in our homes– I’ve seen God provide like I never imagined possible. Separations can be risky tho, because u don’t get maintenance from your spouse; like u do in a divorce proceeding.
In re: to your comment about distractions on this blog- I saw him for what he was the first time I heard him. When someone tries to prove their point by Scripture and cause u to feel like u need to defend yourself, I usually sense it’s a ‘wolf in sheeps clothing’. They mis-use Scripture over and over, and I refuse to defend myself. I agree with you, God is the One and Only we look to. And He IS OUR DEFENDER.
Thisnks Robin. This is so reassuring. My confidence in coming to a decision after years of a controlling relationship, is that in honouring God He will show himself strong on my behalf.
I have just been confronted if that is really what I want, and told to think carefully as I would regret it and God hates divorce etc It has taken years to get to this point and I would rather have a dinner of herbs with peace and love than an ungodly environment with threatening talk and feeling enslaved. Your post is encouraging.
Wonuola, I think daily about the tranquility in my home now. It’s almost more than I can take in. All this peacefulness and calm, I feel like I’m in a bubble . There is not one area of my life that is full of chaos. The Lord has walked me thru every area giving me what I needed at that moment, and I find myself feeling absolutely Radiant!!!! I’ll pray for you!
Lori, I have never gone without one thing since I filed for divorce. My husband controlled and dominated all the money and refused to support me. God has shown me over and over, I’ll never have to live oppressed again. God just used His people to help as needed. It’s all about how much He tenderly cares for us.
Thanks. Trusting God’s faithfulness as I step out ….
Trusting Him fully for my children too, with confidence they will fulfill God’s plan for them and give Him glory🙏🏾!
Believing with you, sweet sister!!! God is with you
Ann, my counselor is truly a wise counselor who devotes her whole life to abuse survivors and helping them get healthy. I’ve been too many counselors myself, and never have had the experience I do now. I would say check them out by asking a few questions related to how she thinks about abuse. Mine is also grounded in Sociopathy and many addictions that Narcissists usually have. But it took me 30 years to find her!!!!!
Have you considered Ann, doing personal counseling rather then couples counseling?? When I went to counseling WITH my husband I was worse off after the session, then before. I would never do that again. I really believe the way God used to bring me to good health was being in one on one therapy weekly for 3 years. That intensity of counseling gave me the opportunity to work thru 32 years of abuse. It’s the best choice I ever made. I was concerned I couldn’t afford it – but God made a way………..
Hi Robin — I’m out. No more couples counseling. I am now doing personal counseling for chronic PTSD and it’s really helpful. It’s quite expensive but well worth it. I figure once I get through this I may do a little bit of regular counseling for grounding
Ann, can u share how you found your counselor? There are some on here looking for wise counselors and don’t know how to go about finding one on abuse, anger, addictions, etc……..
I visited the EAP counselor at work. I was a mess and was barely hanging on, and told her about how I had finally realized that the PTSD in my history was what was causing all the ruckus in my internal life. She agreed and told me how to search for an EMDR practioner, and to interview them. I sorted through them — the lists for the local area aren’t well maintained, so I called a lot of people no longer practicing. Weeded out the super expensive ones and collected references. In the end, I booked an appt with the first one I could afford. She was recommended by her practice and although not yet certified, is monitored.
We haven’t even done the EMDR yet, but just being able to discuss it with someone who’s not trying to fix me in six sessions or less, and who understands that I’m not in this for a long-term relationship, has been wonderful.
Not sure what difference it makes, but this group does not file insurance, so I pay out of pocket. I don’t even care what my insurance provider will reimburse (which has lousy mental health coverage) because this is what I need, now, to get better.
http://www.emdr.com/ and
http://www.emdria.org/
It was able to manage the symptoms until I left the marriage. Then, with that out of the way, my brain said ok, MY TURN. And in my new-found ability to honor my needs, I said ok (plus the memories were very insistent).
I visited the EAP counselor at work. I was a mess and was barely hanging on, and told her about how I had finally realized that the PTSD in my history was what was causing all the ruckus in my internal life. She agreed and told me how to search for an EMDR practioner, and to interview them. I sorted through them — the lists for the local area aren’t well maintained, so I called a lot of people no longer practicing. Weeded out the super expensive ones and collected references. In the end, I booked an appt with the first one I could afford. She was recommended by her practice and although not yet certified, is monitored.
We haven’t even done the EMDR yet, but just being able to discuss it with someone who’s not trying to fix me in six sessions or less, and who understands that I’m not in this for a long-term relationship, has been wonderful.
Not sure what difference it makes, but this group does not file insurance, so I pay out of pocket. I don’t even care what my insurance provider will reimburse (which has lousy mental health coverage) because this is what I need, now, to get better.
http://www.emdr.com/ and
http://www.emdria.org/
It was able to manage the symptoms until I left the marriage. Then, with that out of the way, my brain said ok, MY TURN. And in my new-found ability to honor my needs, I said ok (plus the memories were very insistent).
Aly, let’s be careful not to assume or judge James motives although we can describe his behaviors. I agree that he does come across at times as the “expert” in Biblical knowledge, challenging everyone to prove him wrong. The point of this blog is not to prove one point of view over another, but to validate the experience of abuse and God’s heart for the oppressed and his care for those in bondage to the oppressor. But when we disagree, let’s try to be as respectful as possible.
Leslie,
Thank you for your comments, they are kind and respected.
Lori, warned me… but hopefully you know my heart for the women in tough places…struggling knowing they are worthy of peace and blessing.
Goodness the posts of their experiences and current situation!
I’m sorry to all of you for my words.
I’m living with such abundance by trusting in God, & His people who understand the abusive cycles.
Thank you Leslie for all you do here and for helping us who are in need True peace of God’s will.
ALY, I Know your heart is for women in destructive marriages. You are a wise woman who wants to share what you have learned. But we want to respond to other’s like James to disagrees with our approach to destructive marriages, with strength and dignity, so that we can hopefully help him see that there is another perspective in this.
Leslie,
I appreciate your example here of how we can respond to people who have differing views than our own. In the recent exchanges with James on this site, I have come to learn a few things about myself.
1. I bear deep deep grief and shame for participating in what I now know as “reactive abuse” (thank you for giving this behavior a name so I can identify it in my behavior if I am involved with this sin again. I beg God to restrain me from this and to give me strength to die to this practice. It harmed me, my h and children not to mention the witness of Christ as I espoused Him as my Lord).
I grieve the years of my life wasted believing my freedom would arrive the moment another would see it my way, or would validate the abuse was my own errant thinking. My freedom came the day I validated it myself. Enough was enough regardless of whether anyone believed it to be so or not. Regardless of the opinion of many that I am at fault for breaking my marriage vows by separating from h abuse. MY opinion of what my experience was needed to be enough. And thankfully, it was.
2. I find myself not strong enough at this time to debate or even share my differing views with one as determined as James appeared to be in disputing the legitimacy of my biblical decision. I hope to get stronger in my CORE (looking forward to introducing myself to this concept).
3. Most grievous to me was the incredibly dark and sinful place I allowed myself to walk in because I knew no other way. I am saying here: there HAS TO BE another way to walk in freedom than to engage in tearing down another so I can walk freely. When I do this, I become the very one I desperately wanted freedom FROM. I am weaping as I write for the pain I have caused others by tearing with my words and legitimizing it with scripture. No wonder the cycle continued within my marriage given the fuel I provided for it to burn! My heart is broken with remorse and sorrow and I have apologized to my h for this more than once since our separation. H has seen my tears and brokenness over this.
4. I desperately want not to have to apologize for wounding another in this way again so I am extremely careful to stay away from the edge so to speak. I especially do not want to have to apologize to one whom continues to take NO responsibility whatsoever for his abuse or acknowledge the complaints against him and consider the possible validity in them (James? husband, others).
I understand the temptation to straighten out another to disprove their view (I may be the worst offender here) I just don’t know yet how to do it in a Godly way with one who is pushing my buttons, so I stay away from it. Part of my boundaries in my separation from my husband is that I will not be engaging in any sort of emotional discussions with him. For practical reasons, (financial, house and car repairs etc.) we converse. The best way I know how not to engage emotionally right now is using email or texting as it affords me space to back away, pray, and attempt to respond in a manner that pleases the Lord and protects both h and myself.
H has REALLY challenged this boundary almost at every turn. Mostly as it relates to our nearly all grown children. He wants my “help” relating to them as they have nothing to do with him.
I have been way too long practicing the former sinful way.
Your examples showed me that when you spoke, you did so in a respectful manner to all, and you did not shy away in fear to point out the places you saw needed exposing in another. I don’t know if that worked for you because this is YOUR blog or not, but I was wondering if this is how you practice your discourses in your personal life also? If so, how does that usually go for you?
I hope to learn more from you and the women on this blog.
I love your heart here Lori and your humility. And God will bless you by increasing you in wisdom as you learn and lean on him. Sorry, but I’ve been locked out of my blog for a few days so I’m responding here.
Leslie,
Thank you for responding and encouraging here. I have another thing I would like to share and that is I am not sure I want reconciliation with my h. I, frankly, am not sure I am marriage material as I feel my heart has hardened toward being with him again. So many years of neglect, abuse, manipulation, deceit, betrayal, etc. etc. All I seem to sincerely hope for is that God can somehow save him sincerely (I think he uses religion as a cover-up) and forgive me for my reactive abuse in the past 8 years or so. I grieve the testimony I was not to him, but don’t really want another chance with him. Still tearful and tender here as I come face to face with the sadness of the situation. I am not sure it is okay to feel this way. Certainly would appreciate feedback if you have time.
Dear Lori,
Your clarity here, about yourself, is just lovely. It’s inspiring. I think I’ve spent so much energy in the past number of months trying to tell if my h’s behaviour is real repentance, that I am out of practice looking in the mirror. Or maybe that’s just an excuse. I simply don’t like getting the log out of my own eye, I’m much more comfortable with blame.
I, like you could not engage in the debate because I was being triggered so intensely. BUT thanks to your insights I have come to see that this is simply a result of needing to develop more CORE strength.
About two years ago I heard a podcast that cut me to the core. I saw so much of myself in the woman interviewed and how she described how she undermined her husband, contributing to a low view of himself. I don’t know if that would be considered reactive abuse or not, but it’s certainly destructive. I need to go back and listen to that again.
Thanks Lori, for your brave self examination. It has shone a light into some dark places that, with The Lord, I can now begin to explore.
Nancy,
The idea that my sharing is somehow “lovely” is perplexing to me as I guess I only see the ashes of my past sins and transgresses. I think TL said she believed God would create beauty from the ashes in my life and I desperately need Him to do that. I weap so for my part of the cycle of abuse and I want so not to ever be a participant in that way again. I feel a bit “frozen” in emotional intimacy with others whom I feel have behaved in abusive ways to me and I really don’t know how to handle it, so I am cutoff for now to hopefully heal and create some safe distance to clear my heart and head. This has been a very safe place to do this for me, (until this blog with all the intensity of the debates. It really triggered me and I still feel “buzzy” inside from reading the interactions.) The idea that I debated with my h for years in this manner and it only spiraled downward ( I began in healthy and considerate requests for change, but over the years of no change and blameshifting that he practiced like a Jedi, I got worse in my reactions and desperate to make sense to him. I needed the pain to stop!) I think I finally separated so I COULD stop dancing the evil dance with h. Communication with h is so very emotionally charged, it is like I see h as a live power line down in the middle of the road. Don’t want to go near it. The most nominal of interactions are ones he can somehow turn into an emotional need. He has played such a victim while not seeing his abuse and neglect. When the safety of our children became an issue, I began to say “no” to him and stand up to him. That was the point he wanted to go to counseling because in his words, “you can’t be pleased”. 5 counselors later, and h not sticking with any of them, the past 9 years have been an increasingly hostile effort on my part for h abuse to stop. It just enforced h victimhood when I would raise my voice to be heard. (as if volume would effect hearing). I fought desperately to try to show him his religion only served to prove him worthy and was a cover up for the real relationship of the heart I needed him to have with God in order to have it with our family. Truly, h never thought h sinned and was appalled that I would point it out. Nearly every broken place in our marriage of the decades cannot be reconciled because h doesn’t believe it is broken. The few places h may agree h sinned, I am supposed to just get over it without repair or an understanding that healing may be necessary. A quick recognition, only after I point it out and conversation over.
Rambling here, but I wanted to thank you for saying that my sharing helped you somehow. It just seems so dark I could not imagine any good coming from it. I had such desires to be a godly wife to my h and feel I have failed miserably in sharing Christs love to him. I hope and pray God can minister to him where I have sinned. I just don’t seem to be the one who is able to right now. Tears flowing again. I think I have cried more tears posting in this blog space than I have in my life. All the pain I have felt has expressed itself in self loathing, depression and anger. Rarely tears. Maybe I am thawing?
Lori, your tender heart brings tears to me eyes. I completely understand the grief you are facing of letting go of trying to save him, and your marriage. At least that’s the grief I am seeing in your writing.
I’m also seeing repentance over your part. You see it clearly, but don’t forget that your responses were in reaction to abuse. That’s not a blameshift, that was the reality of the situation. As you say, you needed it to stop. Be gentle with yourself Dear Lori. Say to yourself what you would tell a beloved daughter or sister that had lived what you did. You would have enormous compassion for her, wouldn’t you?
I agree you can’t be the one to minister to your husband. You are wise to SERIOUSLY limit interaction. Your tender heart needs to heal and the only way that I know of to protect the tenderness of a heart is to erect boundaries around it that prevent damage. If you don’t, your heart will have no choice but to protect itself by becoming hard. And your insight in not wanting to go back down that road is what keeps those boundaries in place (I’m guessing here.)
But as you keep those boundaries, guilt will rear it’s head because this is a new practice. Guilt is like a monster to me that gets SUPER big when we begin saying no, or increase boundaries, or stand firm each time they’re challenged. The guilt will subside,though. Cling to Christ, and He will begin to dis-entwine the over-responsibility that you carry with regards to your husband, and your marriage.
Prov 4:23 says above all else, guard your heart for it is the wellspring of your life.
This proverb made me realize that boundaries are an option, it is a command from our Lord.
And the flip side is to allow ourselves to be cared for by The Lord and His children. So our heart gets filled with Love. We can guard our heart from leaking love but we also need to allow Love into our hearts.
For me, when Jesus told his disciples in John 6:28 ” The work of God is this : to believe in the one He sent.” What is it to believe, Lori? Is it not to open our hands and our hearts and accept what He has done for us? He took the wrath of The Lord for us. How astounding is that?!? Right?!! But accepting this Love is no small ‘task’ for someone who has been mistreated for so long. Accepting that Love comes in the form of reading the amazing encouragement of sisters like T.L. and Aly. It means being tender towards yourself too, dear Lori. It’s no small thing to accept Love after being mistreated. I hope you hear the Spirit of what I’m saying here. It takes time and yes, yes, a safe place and safe people. I am speaking as much to myself here as I am to you. Small steps. Teeny ones, even.
Isn’t it wonderful to have a safe place where we have anonymity and the distance we need to heal, and encouragement to take those teeny steps? I hope you hear encouragement Lori because you really have helped me to look at myself. The Lord has used your words to gently nudge me along 🙂
This proverb (4:23) made me realize that boundaries are NOT an option. It is a command from our Lord.
Your response fills my eyes with tears.Kindness from someone I don’t know but who identifies with me! Counting on your prayers with love and appreciation.
Thank you xxx
Against the Grain,
I will do my best to answer based on my past process and my continued journey. Personally, based on your writing you have done already a great job at getting some objectivity, getting support of people who can relate to what your dealing with. Even though not all our husbands have all the same external behaviors (meaning cookie cutter ways of dealing with compartments) or other symptoms… the internal ones deal great with self worth. (Am i significant?)
My response is long, I apologize.. this is difficult for me to write out. It could be a snoozer 🙃 Based on length, I’m sorry for that.
Plus I included much of your previous post within mine which adds the length because I wanted to not forget your highlights.
The ‘objectivity’ was necessary for me because I needed the strength for the journey. My broken places collided with how I wanted to be treated, but how I was willing to be mistreated with no consequences.
Back to objectivity~
Being a mother has been a gift to me to learn some of this. To be a source of comfort, nurture and strength to them as they learned emotional places of development and still are;) this does not get hard-wired or downloaded at birth.
Objectivity for me helped me see what was the battle and what was I willing to journey through or not.
My battle with my h was ‘his mindset in general & toward me’
Yes this is a spiritual battle indeed because my h had little tools to protect his heart and his thinking.
My objectivity helped me not fall down the hole (most times/remember it’s a process especially when your dealing with these ingrained patterns and mindsets in husband’s and people you love) and helped me stop all of the spinning plates he was most experienced at distracting me with. The more distractions, the ‘less accountability’ for the reasoning excuses and or blameshifting. Oh have I mentioned the guilting and shaming when one holds one accountable or even gets close to uncovering the ‘hiding self’. Again this can get back to power issues.
Be kind to your process to! Your heart needs tender care all along the way.
You expressed some of your h past and I’m sorry for what he has experienced and how that has stunted and tangled certain growth behaviors.
Does he agree it has effected him negatively?
Or does he think the past is just the past and get over it?
When someone is repeating behaviors or offenses even if they are not identical but similar in attitude, it is not the past it is the Present!
It’s painful to be on the receiving end of this (you), but we can take rest knowing God is in process regardless of the outcome.
You wrote:
(“A child in his father’s house still trying to gain acceptance is what our counseling pastor concluded.”
” Huh, same thing he has been doing. The last few days he’s touted and tried to excuse and blame shift with “none of what I’ve done has been on purpose”. Although I’m not even sure he understands “what” he has done specifically to oppress and abuse us emotionally, mentally, or spiritually.”)
This is my opinion…
A person who struggles with their inner worth, identity in Christ, significance etc…
Will struggle seeing and most vitally taking personal responsibility for bad behavior or just plain adolescent thinking.(such as your comment above about his belief of this…because it was not on purpose it is irrelevant?)
So somehow in ‘his mind’ in order for something to have weight… it needs to be on purpose?
Again him having to think into that would take energy and discipline he probably doesn’t have yet because he’s too busy dealing with how much energy it takes self protecting.
One thing that seems to be the biggest contributor especially to this destructive mindset is this:
What’s ok for me, to think behave and feel, is not ok for you!
My needs trump your needs! My hurts trump your hurts etc
Again this takes us back to an unequally balanced relationship, this can happen in any type of relationship not just in marriage.. which ultimately highlights a serious problem if there is only enough room for one experience in the relationship and or discussion then it’s not a healthy relationship! It’s not mutual even in value.
(For me analysis of these beliefs helped me ‘objectively’ stay the course) and most certainly not get sucked into the distorted thinking that is self destructive ultimately.
God helped me get objective about the behaviors so I could get healthier to see my h better through a different lense. No this isn’t the compassionate pity one.
This is the lense that ‘held 2 places’, one of sensitivity for his addictive undeveloped thought pattern and one of great love that desires the highest good for the other. Those higher ‘goods’ did involve loving boundaries;) and expectations for their to be a hope in a relationship.
One example of a ‘repetitive’ defense is this:
…Especially in their irrational emotional wounded places it can look different (you can feel crazy) but objectively it can help you step back to the manipulation tactic.
They will lash out (anger) and accuse you of something they the offenders are guilty of!
They will even do this in the moment if their offense. They don’t chose to see or evaluate their skewed perceptions and or double standard thinking root!
Facts to stay sane are very important here:
You wrote:
“Finally after the 3rd time of this comment I pointed out that his dad’s abuse wasn’t intentional either and it doesn’t make his pain any less. I hope that’s the last of that excuse.”
I would be curious to know what his response was to this?
Is it reasonable to hope that that’s the last of his excuse when it has served him so well in not taking responsibility?
I’m mean is it hardwired for him to feel immediate comfort at avoiding ‘feeling bad’?
Or is it realistic to think he might need a few times cognitively to see his error in dismissing someone else’s pain or how he has effected you all?
You wrote:
“He has had better behavior since the ultimatum – he’s a great one for running away so he’s been engaging with me and children more, trying to be more considerate, little to no anger or extreme irritation.”
His is where counseling and interventions are CRITICAL, many of his emotions can go under-ground ‘ especially if he’s trying hard to be on good behavior’
Maybe you already posted but he needs a place with a few Godly men and accountability for his fears. Hopefully spiritually/clinically lead.
“You asked about source of anger – His anger is deep – shame and lack of identity (who he is in Christ) as he still thinks of himself as the disappointment his dad portrayed he is. Hurt, sadness and fear all 3 are his anger. (see below about his dad)”
This is painful, his dad left some open wounds and he found some protective wounds that actually keeps his Heavenly Father further!
Is he wanting to walk through the grief& discovery process of how this has impacted his manhood?
For me.. i got objective as best as I could..here… because the ‘little person inside my h’ was robbing and controlling our situation. The little person needed to be dealt with in our situation. The little person formed many beliefs that were ultimately self destructive and sabatoging to growth to my h and to those around him.
Talk about selfish? Ok I had to step back and see who was emotionally and mentally controlling this dynamic, ‘the little h inside’
The little person in Him was never seen, therefore I was ‘not’ seen ultimately.
If your not seen it’s hard to show behaviors of respect and value to others.
If your not seen, it’s hard to feel seen especially by God. If your not seen… it’s hard to ultimately trust. Trust God, trust others.
This may seem too deep or too psychological and analytical… my apologies however I believe
‘Psychology is the study of the soul’
I know who I belong to!
I know who sees me, it’s Him, always been;) He’s been faithful, caring and loving. I can trust Him.
You wrote:
“He lives with a mental/emotional filter that takes most things as criticism because his dad’s attitude/tone was always “you’re dumb, stupid, can’t do anything right, give up now you’ll never succeed . . .” So I can say something encouraging from my point of view and his filter twists it to be negative.”
I think you are seeing a pattern here of deep shame.
Try: when I say this… h, what do you hear me saying in your own words?
This helped my h tremendously evaluate and discern a word of authentic encouragement verses twist it to shape his core beliefs or image of his self.
This is where the Bible is daily essential for our nutrition of our souls~ as well as cognitive therapies to assist in deconstructing the untruths that have been rooted.
I’m a visual person so I thought of it as many protective bombs inside the head and they needed to be dismantled carefully;)
“Would you share with me 2 thinks:
What do you mean by: I needed lots of objectivity on the situation!!”
Hopefully I gave you some ideas on my route of getting more objective at the same time willing to work toward a goal.
I will answer in another post the guidelines etc you asked about.. I’m not even sure this one will post😬
Hi Rose,
Somewhere you asked if I knew where you could find a counselor skilled in dealing with destructive/abusive marriages. Because of the necessary anonymity of this blog, none of us knows where the others live, so it is a hard question to answer.
But here are some ideas:
1.Write to Leslie (Pennsylvania), Chris Moles (W. Virginia), Patrick Doyle (Oregon), and Diane Langberg (Pennsylvania) asking if they know anyone in your area. Steven Stosny or Lundy Bancroft might be worth contacting for a referral of a secular therapist.
2. Another route would be to look for a counselor whose list of what they work with includes abuse, trauma, and or anger issues.
3. Skype counsel with Leslie or Patrick Doyle
4. Contact local service organizations that deal with abuse: Women’s shelters, etc. Try this site: http://www.ncadv.org/learn-more/resources
Maybe Leslie or others have other ideas…praying for light for your path. The Lord will lead and guide you as you step out and begin seeking and knocking on doors for help.
I can not recommend any associates of Diane Langberg. We had a counselor from her group who was clearly not experienced in abuse. He promised to protect me and nearly caused my death. He had no experience with destructive relationships and was learning from my husband and I. The counselor sided with my abuser and mocked me, saying I needed to be more affectionate. When we met in private to discuss the abuse, he said I just needed to purge myself of the past. Diane may be wonderful, but it was impossible to get an appointment with her.
Aly,
Once again, thank you for writing all this out. I’m sure it will be helpful to Against the Grain. It was very helpful to me! So many similar self-protective and avoidant techniques in my marriage.
Aly, your posts are so interesting. And so convicting. I realize that I’m living in a sort of denial. My 1st marriage was so bad…..25 years……then I was single for 8 years and
then got SO tired of the whole community believing the lies and vilifying me that I sought to leave the area. Marriage to another looked like a good option and I thought it might show the children left at home that a marriage could be good. Not so. I got sucked into another abusive relationship. I don’t know how I didn’t see it coming. However, this time I read the books and set boundaries and dragged him to counselors and eventually he learned to put on a much better act. Outwardly. He went underground, so I just decided that ‘staying well’ meant to detach emotionally, and live a separate life in the same house. Better than it was, right? But he claims to be a Christian! And I know he plays mind games all the time. And heaven forbid I have ideas and hopes and wishes of my own and share them. We talk about politics and church issues and what friends are doing, but that is all. I don’t dare talk about us, or he goes silent. Or counters with,”How can I make changes if you never tell me what the problem is?” and then walks away, doesn’t talk to me for a week or so, then pretends nothing was said and all is well. He like to say, “We have a good marriage. We never fight.” Like I would dare!! Hey, I got punished for 8 years for hanging his shirts the wrong way and I didn’t even know it!!! He never said. He calls me ‘Sweetie’ (which I don’t like, but what would he know?) and says he likes me.
Before I married him, his dad’s will said he wouldn’t inherit the farm because he wasn’t married and didn’t have kids. After I married him, his sister took the dad to the lawyer and made him change the will. But we aren’t allowed to know what’s in it except that she keeps telling him that if I was gone, he’d get it. Once he even said he was hoping I’d leave ’cause all he’s ever wanted was the farm (though I doubt she’s telling the truth). He’s still waiting for his dad to one day say, “Well done, son.” but I doubt that will ever happen. He misses his little house pets that have died more than he would miss me. When we separated for a few weeks, he said he was happy and didn’t miss me.
Well, I just yesterday got the book, “How We Love” in the mail, and I’m afraid to read it, because then maybe I have to do something, right? And I’m so tired. So tired. 25 years on the first rodeo, and already 11 on this one……..can’t I just keep living in la-la land, be happy alone together, and hope for……what? Anyway, that’s where I’m at. Guess I don’t want to start over, I don’t want to be a two-time loser, I don’t want my children to think worse of me than they already do, I don’t want to be dependent on them, and I don’t really want to go on this way. Or maybe I do. Can’t afford counseling. The farm isn’t big and makes very little money, but when he gets opportunity to get a better job he gets all depressed and doesn’t take it. He prides himself on living on next to nothing. Makes the finances so complicated that I don’t even really know what’s what. Over a year ago the pastor talked him into giving me a set amount each month so I didn’t have to beg for and account for every single penny, and ever since then we haven’t gone out together or done anything fun or interesting together besides the already planned camping trips. I guess I tell myself that’s how many couples over history have lived, it’s not the worst thing, oh well.
Any thoughts, anyone?
Oh Connie. Thank you so much for being vulnerable here. I admire your willingness to be convicted and to look in the mirror – a gift from God!
I don’t have any particular insight but I can offer you prayer.
Dear Lord, I lift up my sister Connie to you and ask that she experience your felt presence. That you would wrap her in a tangible blanket of love and care and that you would enable her to accept your love. Father God you ARE love. You love perfectly. Allow her to come to KNOW you as Abba Father, but also as Ishi husband. Wash her anew, Lord. Fill her with your Spirit and enable her to come to a deep awareness of your love for her.
In Jesus precious name, I pray.
Amen.
Connie,
I don’t have any directive words of wisdom from the Lord; just my heart.
I’m sorry your first H was abusive to you. What a dirt-bag. I’m sorry you felt pressure to re-marry – that’s ridiculous. Your current H and his family sound wack-a-doodle-doo🙄. Having to constantly process ‘the crazy’ must be draining.
But one thing that lurched up in my heart as I read your posts today is this- Connie is so wise. Connie is so discerning. I was I could take her away from those crazy people who don’t appreciate her. I’m 44, close to the same age as the son who she was grieving over. I’d love to have her as a mother!❤️
I would love for my 3 kids to have her as a grandmother. My knuckle head H could certainly benefit from her wisdom LOL.
You’re so smart; you should write a book (I’d buy it). You’re so perceptive you could be a counselor.
What I’m saying Connie is – not just your wisdom is a Jewel, YOU ARE A JEWEL!
Aside:
Your insight on the comment you made on Jan 29 about throwing all our energy into pursuing the people who don’t love us while overlooking the people who do care for us as a trick of the enemy was a Sad Gem of Insight. But So True. We always want what we can’t have and we don’t appreciate what’s right under our noses.
Another Aside:
When Robin mentioned having a journal where she keeps her favorite quotes from Leslie, I do the same thing. But in my journal, I keep quotes from Various ladies who share on this blog. I have many quotes from you Connie.😉
You too Robin❤️
T.L.
Thank you for your response. I have received your writings to bring clarity over and over. I appreciate your comments and your positions on many areas that seem to weigh into our topics and discussions.
My purpose to write:
I’m just wanting to share my journey of where I’ve been and how ‘God’ has worked in my life so far.
I’m grateful for the gracious corrections I’ve received and I will work on how I can grow in those areas. I’m here to continue to learn about my journey and seek to understand my pain so I can better myself and my family.
If God can use me, I want to be used.
I have been misunderstood through most of my journey and that has lead me down ‘some painful seriously unnessary routes’ which had only reinforced the abusive mindset of my spouse.
T.L. My heart is for the hearts of these precious individuals and of course yourself;) and the possible reconciliation of your marriage T.L. You are worthy of that covenant! 💜~ as you know and you probably can feel it everyday that God is keeping that covenant with you regardless of the outcome. My prayers are for you both and God’s will to bless you.
Just to clarify incase I’m being misunderstood for any readers:
I’m am FOR healthy biblical God glorifying marriages. I think you all are too;) and nobody wants to lose a marriage….or live in one that is compromising God’s truths.
But what I began asking myself is what I have ‘a marriage’? One that God is pleased with?
My h during past yrs/times would have said- absolutely we have a marriage and it’s great and he was quite comfortable.
But NOW, he loves and honors what his marriages means. He’s blown away! I’m mean he sees how he was ‘so protected’ from being loved well! He knows I have always been there for his highest good, even if that meant more and more boundaries.
And unfortunately it did but I believe pain has purpose.
Some though will not come around especially if it means the relationship will have equal weight but with one headship.
An unhealthy headship I believe can be dangerous to follow or to reinforce. It’s dangerous for the one who is paving the path. I did that! I did that thinking somehow this is what I’m told to do but we were so broken!
He continued to loose more and more respect for me the more he got away with no accountability for his behaviors.
Of course we still are broken in process… but healing in redemptive ways.
I can speak into what it’s like to try to live within a destructive one~
First, it believe it isn’t really ‘a marriage under covenant that gives a Godly glorify example….
and usually one partner is trying harder than the other until they just cease to exist.
My h would list the ways he saw marriage once and what he sees now to almost being married to ‘an unbeliever’
Problem was he was a professing Christian.
My h defined covenant marriage very different than I did. And he came from very little example of love, honor and indeed cherish;)
I mean are we not called to give an example to our children of what christ’s love looks like? Of course mine will be broken but doesn’t He call us to a high love toward Him, ourselves and others?
We were robbing them of a treasure that God set up as a privilege for us to give them even in a broken world.
So for me, I was willing to give boundaries for those questions to be explored in depth by my h and myself.
I guess my main position is that many in our Christian culture are EQUATING the argument to be ‘staying married or not staying married’ and I don’t think that’s the issue at all…. maybe many of us here can relate?
I guess I would think it would be about
‘Staying Married biblically’ verses moving into the design and cultivation of ‘Being Married biblically’ and that takes Christ’s in us.
I see a difference and live a difference now in process of course!
Not sure if that makes sense but it’s like the difference between saying ‘sorry’ and ‘being sorry’
Usually the ‘being part requires the humility to want to act’ or change’ or grow etc.
“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called sons of God.”
Matt 5:8-9
Praying for all on this journey💕
Dear Aly,
I had to take some time off of contributing and even reading for a day or 2 because I was being triggered and tripped up, and wanted to settle my heart. I realize I may have missed some comments or questions directed to me by my sisters here, so I am sorry if I didn’t see something from you or someone else.
I don’t think there is a woman contributing to or reading these blog comments that does not know that your heart is FOR Christian marriage.
A truly Christian marriage presupposes that one is truly a Christian–one whose life has been surrendered to Christ and who is actively in the process of looking to him and being transformed by the knowledge of Him.
“But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.”
It is so confusing to live in a marriage with a spouse who claims Christ, but seems to be avoiding the entire process of transformation with the excuse that “God’s grace covers everything, it’s under the blood” or “I’m praying about it” or just seemingly “using God to hide from God” by pouring oneself into ministry or some other work instead of into one’s relationship with God first, and then others, too. Meanwhile, the sincere spouse is trying to have true fellowship in Christ with her spouse, but he is not interested in that. Then the cycle of confrontation, denial, deflection, anger, etc., that confused so many of us for so many years ensues, and we are left so frustrated, confused, and just so sad!
I think then, the kind of marriage I just described is Christian in name only. I really appreciated someone else’s comment (Connie’s, or Content’s, maybe?) who said that in the early church, insincere “posers” would not have survived the piercing scrutiny of the Holy Spirit, as we saw in the case of Ananias and Sapphira. A marriage with a spouse who was not walking in love and authenticity and humility in their primary relationship would have had no place to hide then. They would have been exposed and allowed a chance to repent, and then ultimately put out of the church. This kind of discipline rarely happens in the church today, and when it does, the person can just go down the street to another church that will ask no questions. Connie made the point about Sapphira, too, who was given the chance to testify against her husband; to expose his duplicity and hypocrisy. Instead, she went along with it, “submitting to his leadership,” if you will, and she died with him. Horribly drastic example, but the application for us, I believe is that we are wise and faithful and godly when we stand against hypocrisy in our mates.
In your case, Aly, your husband’s heart softened and he was able to repent and repent and repent, as his inner motives and attitudes became clear to him. And your marriage gives us hope.
But we will not have false hope. As we refuse to pretend, confront, hold accountable, expose to others, and make boundaries, if our husbands harden their hearts, we cannot remain by their sides as they continue to choose to live in entrenched sin.
Everything you said makes very good sense, and again, I relate so well to your experiences. So good to hear a little bit about how your husband is viewing things now; his “before” and “after” views. If you get time, maybe you could elaborate just a bit on that: how he feels about things, things he says, how he was able to humble himself, and fruit he sees in his heart and life now, and maybe how God is using Him.
We KNOW how God is using you! To bless us and help us out of confusion.
Much love and gratitude to you, Aly.
Hi T.L
I wanted to respond to your questions above and wanted to note how you are such a source of strength and clarity here while going through your own process.
It’s such a grief place but more than that it can be so much freedom than ever before.🙏
When I read other posts you commented on getting help via adult children of alcoholism (pretty sure that was you) I’m sorry if I’m wrong.
Anyway, I can so relate getting in that ‘corner of recovery’ as I was raised in a home where both parents were children of adult alcoholics.
I’m planning to list the behaviors of my h in another post in case this one is too long, plus I need to copy and past your question 🤗
Hi Aly,
Whenever you are ready to explain your counselling strategy, I’m ready to hear it. I’ll only check back in here, after tomorrow (Monday) afternoon.
Did you have the same counsellor for individual as well as your couple? What was your rational for whatever strategy you chose.
Tomorrow we go to our first couples session. I am ready to follow The Lord’s leading.
This morning we had a good conversation about the mask my h wears, and how much energy he puts into keeping it on ( most of this was me listening). I was able (in Christ) to respond by reassuring him that I love the guy under the mask (despite being really scared of what I would find- I’ve seen enough to know that yes, that’s the guy I love). I was able to articulate that I am FOR the guy underneath the mask and I am committed to the vows I took to him. Everything though, EVERYTHING that feeds the putting on, or care taking of that mask (including my own destructive attitudes) I am AGAINST.
The marriage we have known has been put on the altar.
I would appreciate prayer for tomorrow. That I would go in trusting The Lord in each interaction, in each moment of that session, and of course, for the outcome.
A dear sister warned me on Friday : now that my h has begun to respond to The Lord, satan will increase his attack on us. He wants this marriage. I was sobered by that statement.
I have 3 priorities:
1) To nurture and protect my relationship with Christ
2) To nurture and protect what is God Glorifying in my marriage
3) To nurture and protect what is God Glorifying in our little family
Any activity that does not support these will fall by the way-side.
I think I might create a decision grid out of this!
Nancy, I will be joining Aly and others here in praying for your session tomorrow. It is so great to read of your clear vision and thinking as you (and your husband!) take your next step toward freedom in Christ. ~T.L.
Oh Connie!!
Can I just give you a big HUG??
Being a child of God means you ‘are precious’ in SO many ways!
He delights in us, Delights in us!! 💖
I can hear your heart and boy do I understand much of what you are experiencing and fearing!
Your fear is validated and it’s not shameful to be fearful and honest with ourselves about what we are experiencing.Yes, given our emotions (maybe you are just starting to feel them in different ways) it can be painful and scary journey but it can be very healing (by God) when we see our hurt beneath our coping.
He does bind up our wounded hearts and set us free💕
I’m praying for you;)
Hi Nancy,
I just got this post … so I’m very sorry for my delay.
You wrote:
“Did you have the same counsellor for individual as well as your couple?”
We had the same for both and I had another individually;) I figured given the mountain up and out I needed all the help I could get 😉
You wrote:
“What was your rational for whatever strategy you chose.”
My rational was this, given all the past attempts at us both getting healthier..,I was in a realistic place of the possibility of another long road given how long the dance had been going on together let alone individually.
You wrote:
“Tomorrow we go to our first couples session. I am ready to follow The Lord’s leading.”
I will pray for your heart and your discernment. I’ll pray for peace in your heart even though I’m sure your tired.
We were thankful we had a counselor (the joint one 😉) who understood attachment, could work with (couples in patterns together and individually)
but mostly for me it was does this person’s wisdom align with the highest calling of God’s word.
This may take another visit to explore? Maybe not, try to be realistic with the circumstances and know there are many wonderful counselors out there if this one doesn’t seem to be the place.
You wrote:
“This morning we had a good conversation about the mask my h wears, and how much energy he puts into keeping it on ( most of this was me listening). I was able (in Christ) to respond by reassuring him that I love the guy under the mask (despite being really scared of what I would find- I’ve seen enough to know that yes, that’s the guy I love). I was able to articulate that I am FOR the guy underneath the mask and I am committed to the vows I took to him. Everything though, EVERYTHING that feeds the putting on, or care taking of that mask (including my own destructive attitudes) I am AGAINST.”
Well said and given with love and clarity Nancy;)
You wrote:
“A dear sister warned me on Friday : now that my h has begun to respond to The Lord, satan will increase his attack on us. He wants this marriage. I was sobered by that statement.”
I agree with the warning and any fear will can rob us of our courage ..
.but look at what your aligning your heart to… God! We are praying for you too~ my h as well!
So my thoughts.. ‘get behind me satan’ you have Know idea Who your messing with and WHo is my Mighty Counselor and Redeemer really is!
Regardless of the outcome.. I was ready to receive what the Lord was going to offer.
You wrote;
“I have 3 priorities:
1) To nurture and protect my relationship with Christ
2) To nurture and protect what is God Glorifying in my marriage
3) To nurture and protect what is God Glorifying in our little family
Any activity that does not support these will fall by the way-side”
Beautiful!!!🙏
I will pray that you can find the strength you need for this. Be patient with yourself.
What I find just overwhelming in God’s character is that He is the perfect combination of Pursuing and patience!
Sending prayers & hugs your way💜
Vanessa, in my situation a separation was necessary for healing to be given an opportunity. There was too much abuse and pain for way too long- to do it together. So I would say it definitely depends on how much pain there has been- and do you feel safe?? I think one of the benefits of a separation is giving yourself some room to breathe. If like me you are in constant abuse and stress- getting away, gives you opportunity to know what you really think and gives some time to just – focus on your needs. But I also believe some couples havnt been in severe abuse and pain, and maybe they could do it together.
Robin – I wouldn’t call it constant, but it’s sure lurking there under the surface. There’s still the not trusting who’s coming in the door from work. He’s putting on a happy face and behavior right now . . . but I don’t trust it nor do my sons yet. At any given time he will still revert back to “running away” (to the basement to his computer, or just go to bed and sleep).
Sometimes I wonder how I can heal and help my boys heal, when I feel like h wants the most “mothering” from me – yet he’s an adult and our boys are not. I guess wondering how much of HIS “recovery” is my responsibility. It’s the emotional entanglement that still leaves me wondering if a therapeutic separation may be wise.
The thing is waiting for Mr. Nice Guy to wear off (and I’m sure it will) feels like it’s him that’s in control of the entire process and what I feel may be necessary isn’t much of a consideration. This is where my counselor will come in handy – and I’m hoping bring some clarity to what MY responsibility is.
Robin and Vanessa;)
I can so relate with your comments Robin! I hope it’s ok I can comment in here..,.?
I think the space is helpful given the severity of the harm. Vanessa you mentioned the gun issue which I’m stilll confused on …a way back via posts ~ has that all been secured? By you? By others?
Are you afraid for any of his irrational emotions.?
Harm can be open and out there and harm can be more evasive and underground.
What was helpful for me was to see what i held boundaries on or not?
This is so difficult when I was emotionally worn down!
Did I have enough space to evaluate… am I following through and am I being clear with what the boundaries are?
When dealing with a manipulative coping person.. I’m assuming here he is,.,,they have a keen awareness of weakness.. go figure?
This is where I had to get objective because the person manipulating is coming from such a broken state ..,they are pretty sold out on their position..
My weakness.. follow through and being loving but assertive! I’m working on it;)
God helped me develop a voice to ask for what my needs were.
They were never going to be his (husband) needs.
Vanessa, I mean this with softness but I’m trying to speak clarity… especially since we’ve been talking requirements …
Ask your husband if he believes his anger is a problem? If he says yes..,
He needs to come up with a full comprehensive plan as to how he is going to deal and heal? And RESTORE what the anger has stolen.
Once that is drawn up, evaluate it based on your needs.., it might not be enough! So make adjustments for what your needs and safety are, he must agree to follow through and there needs to be a list of accountability people that will be called if he is not following through.
Ok back to the original question.., if he says NO it’s not that bad or it’s not on purpose etc.. then you know ‘you’ need to draw up the recovery requirements to get safe.
He needs to decide if he is willing to do the work to earn trust and safety back based on your needs!
It may seem selfish to have these areas about your needs but actually they are usually the highest GOOD for all involved.
Please let me know if this is confusing… or if you are not clear.
Praying for you to see your needs and find your voice;)
Aly –
Thanks for all your wonderful, thorough thoughts. I think I need to chew on them for a few days . . .
The gun – Thankfully, at the ultimatum it is gone – secured with a friend only to be given back to h when I say he can have it back. He has veiled suicide threats with me, but at the ultimatum he said he’s not ever done that only thought about the subject of suicide from a Christian perspective. I called him out on it, repeating what he’s said. He claimed he doesn’t remember ever saying . . . the pastor got in his face knowing it was convenient “forgetting.” So safety that way is not an issue. It’s just the emotional silent junk and total inconsistency with his behavior. Still cautious of the anger blow – or rather silent anger tension.
You said: “Harm can be open and out there and harm can be more evasive and underground.”
To me, this is where he is. The last few days he’s been calm, no anger (claims it’s gone!), etc. But when you haven’t dealt with the issue that CAUSED the anger, it’s still festering waiting to blow…and we are all very cautious. I’m sure if I were to ask if he feels his anger is a problem he would say no – because he’s masking it (suppressing it) right now. BUT neither 6mo ago did he feel his silent anger was an issue because he “didn’t hit or yell or break anything”. I did nip that lie and asked him to think about what his dad’s silent anger did to him. Even then he put on nice face for a while knowing I was right – but there was never an apology. Until the emotional root is gone through counseling, etc. I know it’s still there, lurking in the darkness. SO – the self deception is to put on a happy face and appearance and think that makes everything ok.
Him coming up with a plan?? That almost makes me laugh as he hates when anyone asks his plans about anything…because he always has IDEAS but doesn’t plan to accomplish them (the immature teenage mindset – I can think it and life will bring it my way with ease). So, indeed I will need to set the
Your statement: Blame shifting – then you know ‘you’ need to draw up the recovery requirements to get safe. He needs to decide if he is willing to do the work to earn trust and safety back based on your needs!
I think this is where my counselor will come in handy! I have no idea at this point what it is I do need, but I have a strong feeling he won’t be willing to do the work . . . but he will say his is!! So then I’m back in the same boat. My example for that is he gives lip service to following a budget – but balks at most of it and is unwilling to work together. SO if he won’t do that – I’m thinking he won’t do the HARD work of changing the wrong beliefs which he doesn’t see as wrong, or working to correct attitudes . . . although he’ll say he is!!
Your thoughts are actually very clear – and help my muddled thinking (although it’s getting clearer) – Answer to Prayer!!
There have been so many good comments on this post this week,
HOW DO I KEEP HOPE ALIVE?
It’s one my favorite topics, because it was so difficult for me to give up hope in my marriage. Everything in me, wanted it to work and change and thrive. It took me two intense years of weekly therapy to get me ready to be in a frame of mind, I was ready to hear the Truth. Dr Henry Cloud really helped to change my thinking. I was stuck in what I learned at Church and even in Gods Word. Dr Cloud said do you have a true hope, or is it just a wish. He helped me to understand I was like a rat in one of those wheels going round and round and round. I was the only one in my relationship trying to make it work. There were no changes. Only me – wishing for a change. Today I know a true real hope can only be found in Christ. And when we understand that, our wishes aren’t needed anymore and our life does change, because we have found a true Hope finally. Then the Lord steps in and walks with us and we can’t figure out how our life has become one of ease. It’s because the Lord is at the helm. Not an abusive husband. I’m so grateful God rescued me and brought me to know where True hope is found.
Robin, I always find your comments/story/insights to be soooo helpful. Thank you!
My comments are awaiting moderation. That’s hilarious.
Ann L and others,
Usually when that happens (“Your comments are awaiting moderation”) it’s because your name and email don’t match…maybe you put in a wrong letter, or changed your screen name?
Vanessa,
I hope your feeling support and prayers around you;)
The one thing I know and still know is that in ‘such a process’ the Lord anchored my heart 💕.
I had women in my close circle where I could process and rest. Many dynamics are not all that inventive but most have Different angles of what determines a path ~given Robins story she found hope in seeing what path was hers.
She has her blessing and outcome from Him;)
I am not for false hope or false journeys in anyway. I’m praying for true peace and perseverance for God’s will.
This might help.. just a suggestion…
take time to write down character behaviors that you would define as a ‘loving God fearing husband and father.’ Also do it for your role too.
Maybe your h would be willing to do the same for you.
My heart goes out to all the things that are so weighing… and goodness messy to trench through.
I hope my heart is able to express the love I have for my husband! He has amazing qualities that I fell in love~ so I hope my raw writings don’t exhibit a disrespect or any aspect of a hardened heart. The Lord helped me keep an area of not of my own ability (at all).
I felt divorced by him in many regards but it was hard for me to have clarity of this. Plus I couldn’t see trying to love him at an adult level (I had to grow here too) he was not responsive to.
The more I tried to love him out of what I thought then was love~ the more he took. The more he took the more he felt entitled and on and on it goes.
Below is for later…
NO Need to read this right away Vanessa but maybe it will come in handy later because my h and I were ‘just ourselves’ talking about thoughts on responsibility!
Requirements i have or need to feel safe Dont mean responsibility ‘of me’!
Responsibility is still a choice of follow through.
It’s a requirements for safety that we drive on the right side of the road ~ but it’s not my responsibility to drive everyone’s car to ensure that happens ( that would be impossible, but you get the humor😉)
Our situation isn’t the totally common..,
The danger for my h and I path regarding responsibility and self evaluation was ‘he liked’ being his own boss and being self sufficient.
He had wounds that created the me, myself and I plan. His lifestyle was safely developed around this belief. I can only rely on myself, my own thoughts. Deep avoidant coping skills not the best for self eval.
This doesn’t even work well when your not married.
But it works well with denial, I mean who doesn’t want at times to think they are in their own world and their behavior shouldn’t effect another~ but That’s not reality.
So our danger issue is him getting back to the comforts of deceiving himself which is always lurking with addiction of this kind.
He is the one responsible with his thought process..
and his thought process was very broken. This took time to develop and several interventions/ resources to help him learn perspective.
These are my thoughts on responsibility issues:
You ‘are not’ responsible for his recovery follow through.
But his recovery effects you and the health of the family home regardless ~
And you are responsible as mom over the family home environment
and thats this issue of timeline process etc.
So what would seem ideal (and I agree healthy too) both adults have their own independent recovery, it’s not always what we have to work with immediately. This was my h and i’s situation after plenty of his somewhat failed counseling seasons with his level of self protection. I mentioned in other posts our counselor worked with us individually too and continues to based on our needs.
I’m writing my experience knowing that we all have different situations to weigh out.
You are probably the healthier of the two to assess the emotional &safety issue in the home to determine what is tolerated or not.
Our counselor helped us a lot with facing the reality of which one of us could better help the other on emotional territory here given the nature of the pattern or cycle.
This helped me not second guess as much and gave me clarity if any behaviors walked in.
And yes their were plenty of times he challenge them😜
Your H:
Just my thoughts given what you have offered not saying they are facts:
(what helped my heart was stepping back and seeing my husband’s behavior was not ‘him’ meaning we are loved for who we Are and not what our behavior is.)
This doesn’t negate behavior… or not require behaviors to be in relationship with someone. This was a tough reality to see because I wanted it to just be different and not so exhausting! I mean seriously I had some serious yardwork to accomplish! 😉
As you know Your husband clearly has poor coping skills that are severly underdeveloped (you didn’t cause this)~ one of them a level of denial which is why his taking his ‘own jugdement to reason his behavior’ are well… I think you see the pattern.
He seems to be dealing with great shame maybe more that you realize. Most husbands deep down are ‘quite fragile’ in ways.
Children:
My h was never harsh to our children. Maybe unresponsible in ‘passive ways’ but our children were very much ‘in adoration’ with him.
This was ‘my part recovery’ work here! Someone who is such a great dad with his children, he was in many ways…..but treats his wife with such disrespect is technically Not really acting like a great father overall! Boom~ I was settling with something, not good for me.
Now he sees and has worked to change and restore that big umbrella problem;) praise God!
Yes still is process as I continue to mention but at least the priorities are in a healthier place.
My h was a runner;) escaper he lacked the very basic empathy skills and emotional development. (See Attachment injuries/How we Love book)
(minus the level of outward anger) he was very scared at times but the manipulation tactics seemed to work well with my wounded places.
…Because he didn’t have healthy options developed in him.. again getting in the way of himself..
Sure there was anger… but where was it lurking? ‘His anger was in more of inward reasoning skills which can be hard to uncover’
Let’s face it a toddler tantrum that’s not dealt with at 2-3yrs, looks different at 7yrs, looks different at 14 and on and on.
But at least an outward toddler tantrum is evident and we can all agree ‘it happened’ so to speak.
Because of my husbands ‘father wound’
Just 1 requirement (of the Many other requirements)for my h was weekly mens group in recovery as an essential part of treatment ~
Because he needed to be with other ‘healthier men’ that were growing but also so he could see other men’s responses to stress etc.
~ If I didn’t experience fruit w/ consistency, then clear your schedule.. for 2 men’s groups/week.
I’m sorry this is so long and extensive but I hope it offers where God continued to help me evaluate the patterns, boundaries and path.
Boundaries were difficult for me to be assertive but through plenty of counseling and many resources I knew I was not imagining what I was dealing with.
He will see you through regardless of the outcome;)
I’m confused and struggking to understand something about Leslie’s comment about hope. Her comment: “there is no evidence in scripture that God changes people without their consent and cooperation. Therefore to hope that He will, is not living wisely.” I’ve been praying for my angry, addicted, abusive husband’s salvation for 28 years and how can I stop? It would be like saying, “well Larry must not be one of God’s elect so I’m just going to stop praying for his salvation.” How can I know that for sure? Isn’t this exactly what God did to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascas? Could someone please help me understand this?
Cynthia, praying for your husband is something we never stop doing.
But perhaps we don’t keep a hope alive– that he will change– as we observe his past behaviors. I think this blog on hope is about not putting your hope on, if I keep doing what I’ve been doing, someday he’ll change. Probly not. Dr Henry Cloud in his book Necessary Changes says putting your hope in something that has not changed over time (20-30 yrs) is a false hope. The only exception being sometimes a spouse might get new information and make a radical change and transform. But he says this is very rare. But we never stop praying for them. It sounds like you have been able ‘to stay well’ and his lack of change isn’t causing great pain for you. I think Leslies words were for those who can’t stay well, and are still hoping he will change.
In those situations, then the spouse will need to consider if she needs to change, instead of continuing in a hope that is not giving her what she needs.
Hi Cynthia,
Leslie may see your comment and answer herself. I’m happy to give my bit of insight in the hope it may help you.
There are lots and lots of people in the Bible who repented of their sins. Every single follower of Christ at that time, and in our times, and throughout history has had a heart change. Someone else can correct me if I am wrong, but I can’t think of an instance where there is a Biblical example of a specific link between someone praying for another to repent, and that person coming to Christ. We do see the church as a whole, and groups of people praying to God to work His salvation generally, and we see scores of people coming to Christ–5,000 in one day, on one occasion. The link we DO see, is people being preached to, presented with the Gospel, and the power that is in the Gospel itself is the seed that is planted and springs to life, changing the heart.
This is precisely what happened to Paul. In the narration, we see Paul’s misguided zeal. And then we see the risen Christ Himself confronting Paul. And then we see Paul’s quick heart change, repentance, and obedience.
Same with the 5,000. Same with the disciples. Same with Zacheus, etc, etc. Confronted with Christ, either directly or through preaching, repentance and faith occur.
When a person claims to be a follower of Christ, but their behavior does not match up, we are to begin a confrontation process like the one Jesus describes in Matthew 18. If repentance does not happen when we confront, we are told to get others involved. If they still do not repent (sometimes they “fake it”–and go back to past patterns; that’s not repentance) we are to expose them to the church: tell exactly what is going on to your church. If they still don’t repent, we are to treat them as a common sinner, and not a brother in Christ. There are differing opinions on how to walk that out. But I believe boundaries must go into effect in the hopes of bringing that person to their senses: they have begin to face the truth about themselves.
It’s fine to keep praying for his salvation, but when he is continually confronted and there is no heart change, it is foolish to live your life as if a change is likely. It is unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely based on the evidence. So you stop pretending and wishing your life away, you turn such a one over to God to deal with, and you start taking steps toward getting healthy yourself.
I hope that helps a bit. I will pray for you tonight.
Cynthia, one last little thing: I don’t mean to imply that you shouldn’t pray for your husband. I don’t plan to ever stop praying for mine. But we are told to be sober-minded, wise as serpents, innocent as doves, to test the spirits, etc. And scores of verses in the Proverbs about wisdom regarding fools. Most of us have had a horrifically hard time being able to admit we are married to a proverbial fool: one who doesn’t listen to reproof, who scoffs at God’s wisdom, who mistreats others, etc. So we can keep praying for the rest of our lives, but today we need to deal with what is; the reality of now. We’re learned to follow God’s ways and leave our husbands in his hands. Our deepest desire is that God uses circumstances and consequences to change their hearts.
Cynthia, surely we can believe that “Our Savior God desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of Christ.” Because of this, you continue to pray for his salvation, but that may not happen as soon as you’d like. After 28 years, he clearly isn’t open just yet, but even if he does get saved, that doesn’t guarantee that his behavior will change immediately. That may take a long time. In the meantime, you need to learn some of the lessons that are being shared here, about setting boundaries and protecting your heart. There is lots of wisdom being shared here. May the Lord grant you His peace and His wisdom to go forward.
T.L.
I really appreciate what you wrote here, I believe it to be such proverb based wisdom.
I have seen many times women in this situation (and it’s Very tough oh my heart breaks)
StAY thinking that they are putting the husband in God’s hands…. and in some cases they are.
But I’m some cases they are not allowing consequences to come into play for God to work with in such places
For my situation;
My presence alone was standing in the way … because it was making some kind of ‘normal’ for him.
We didn’t end up separating but my h had to have lots of interventions.
🙏💗
If prayer changes people’s hearts, then surely Judas and everyone else around Jesus would have changed, but they didn’t. Even the lepers had only a 10% conversion, after being healed directly by Jesus and everything. God says He will give us the desires of our hearts and sometimes send leanness into our souls, if that’s what we really want (Psalm 106:15). Like Pharaoh, or the Israelites in the wilderness. So I think that sometimes it is a waste of time (even counter-productive) to pray like that. Even Paul said it is sometimes better to just hand a person over to satan for the destruction of their flesh, so that they pay attention and start thinking about their spirits. Could it be that all our prayers sometimes hinders repentance, because they know you are praying and so they count on you to carry their burdens? A type of enabling…again? Let go, let go, let go. What is God saying to you? Is He calling you to pray for h, and if so, how? Or is it the false stories we’ve heard from the pulpit or the movies? One person who heard such a sermon asked the pastor who this woman was who prayed for her husband for years until he repented, and the pastor said he’s never actually seen it, he just made up the story.
Thanks all for jumping in and answering Cynthia’s question. Prayer is crucial. Pray for your husband. God will speak to him. He will woo him. He will cause life circumstances to shake him awake. However, your husband will ONLY change if he chooses to repent and acknowledge his sin. So your prayers are essential because God answers prayers. But he never goes against a person’s free choice and if they refuse him, if they want to go their own way, he lets them.
Hello Aly and T.L.,
Thank you so much for praying for me and my h.
Yes my heart IS aligned with the Mightiest Counsellor, Redeemer! Thank you Aly, for that reminder.
Today went well. I felt safe. He asked very good questions and made a lot of sense. We will go back again.
Already he led my h to some underlying thoughts that drive his lying/ manipulation
“She’ll never be satisfied with what I do”
“Things need to be fair”
“Why can’t she just accept me for who I am?”
“Things are good enough between us”
He also talked about how yes, when we have The Lord, we have a whole realm of power that a secular situation doesn’t have, but wether we allow The Lord to work in our interactions will be entirely up to us.
So… We’ll see what next week brings. The counsellor says he’ll lay out a strategy next week and that if we decided to come back, there will be homework. I liked that.
For now I have Peace and there is Peace between us.
Hi Nancy,
It sounds like you may have found a good, wise counselor! I am so glad you felt safe and that your counselor knows how to uncover attitudes of the heart/inner motives. So far, so good! Yay! Keep us posted!
Thank you for the encouragement, T.L. 🙂
“Friend: What helped you to let go of hope without giving up that God was still good and still at work, even if the outcome didn’t turn out the way you wanted it to?”
“. . . without giving up that God was still good and still at work. . .” —I don’t know how we even operate if we don’t believe that God is good and wants good for us. There could be a total evil god who is trying to maximize pain in the world, most of human history has been just horrific but it would probably be more likely that there is no god than that there is an evil god. . . . .Anyways, waiting exposes our idols and throws a wrench into our coping mechanisms. It brings us to the end of what we can control and forces us to cry out to God. We trust He is good, that gives us hope. —What else can anyone do?
. . .With serious neuro-psychological issues and various mental disorders, etc. there seems no hope. —Why? Until doctors can find a way to change brain structure and brain chemistry, I think it is very important to realize that God very, very, very rarely sets aside the laws that normally govern the universe. He set those laws up and they operate very consistently, in fact, we never see them violated. All that means is if I want a Ph.D., I have to work for it and if I want law degrees, I have to work for them. I can’t just pray and they appear. If I want to heal from my horrific past, I have to work with counselors and doctors and really engage the task and it may not even be possible.
Can the brain’s pathways be rewritten and the missing brain circuits and certain brain chemicals and structures for empathy, etc. re-grown? —I don’t see how or know if it is even possible. —Has God ever healed an amputee? . . . Because it seems the equivalent. —Amputees get no miracles outside of first century Palestine, no matter how much people pray for them. What explains the evidence better, that is always the question.
To be a strong and empathetic person always requires us to trust that God will reach the people’s hearts we tried to reach, but just couldn’t. The only thing that will heal our wounds is believing that God loves us enough to bring someone else into our lives to respect us and love us in the way we deserve. Whatever the future brings, you can’t fall deeper than in God’s hands. It’s all God, —everything is God. . . .“For in Him we live and move and have our being!” (Acts Seventeen). . . . I always think about it as me, a sunken ship, inside an ocean and that ocean is God.
Praise God for this!
Wow;) sounds like what you describe is similar to my journey as well.
And home work yes! So essential, we always did our homework (even if we didn’t feel like it) it was really helpful during a process.
We still do our homework!
Again thank you all for your faithful prayers🙏🌈
Thanks Aly 🙂
Lori, I’m not Leslie but I can relate to your feelings. Sometimes there is too much abuse, too much damage and too little effort on his part. Leslie told me once, sometimes it’s just too late ……. for reconciliation.
I divorced, not because it’s what I wanted. But because it was time to create a new future, and move on.
I still feel sad on some days, but I’m having more joyful days again.
Robin,
Thank you for posting even though your not Leslie. 🙂 I am blessed to have come to know some precious sisters here. I am sorry you had to experience this loss personally. Have you struggled with guilt at all? The feeling that your part may have caused it to be beyond repair?
I am aware of things I could have done differently, but as my counselor had shared with me repeatedly, I was not able. My husbands abuse was severe. Nothing could have stopped him.
So no I don’t have guilt, because I know I did all I was able, under the circumstances. I would encourage you to not have guilt hanging over your head. Now is your time to heal and take care of you. I have found the Lord is very faithful to point out any places my heart needs some work. I’m sorry to hear your story- it’s always sad to know someone else experienced all this trauma.
Robin,
I have moments when I feel relaxed in a way I have never experienced in my life. I have come to discover that the only real relief I experienced was when I was asleep. My body, soul and heart just seem to be on such guard all the time. The past year of separation have seemed like only a week or month in terms of its ability to effect health. I have literally felt like my spine has been rigged in being ready for defense from what will come next. I have the most difficult time relaxing for a period of time. I have to say I think the more I can consciously relax, the more life is flowing through me and the more healing is happening in my poor body. I think I suffer much from PTSD, yup….tears again….. 🙁 How does one ever get over or through this? Does the body and mind ever recalibrate?
I’ve been divorced 16 months and I’m just now starting to feel alive again. I also suffer PTSD and have several triggers, esp seeing him in town. So I stay home a lot.
I love this quote– Take all the time you need to heal emotionally. Moving on– doesn’t take a day.
It takes a lot of little steps to be able to break free …. of your broken self………
The day I separated I felt free. It helped me so much to be able to think clearly and know what I wanted and needed. There were many hard days/ it takes time to begin to feel and breathe again. Be very patient with yourself!!!
I wonder if time alone is what heals? It has certainly helped a great deal. Especially in that I am able to stay away from triggers with him. However, I wonder if there is more?
How long were you separated before you filed for divorce?
I had lost all self-identity. Time alone was really needed to – find who I was again. It was actually like a treasure hunt. Who is Robin. ?
What does she like or dislike? What does she need?
For the last ten years of our 32 years of marriage– we separated in the home we both lived in. It was an awful ten years.
I filed for divorce WHEN I COULD NOT TAKE ANOTHER DAY OF PRETENSE.
He went out of town for a month to see our son, and I filed for divorce, moved in with best friends for two weeks as I feared his response. He was ordered to leave the home and I moved back in.
I divorced quickly once I started the process as my lawyer saw my husband was hiding money and had plenty. He was afraid if I stayed separated I would get no financial support. It was hard to do as it came on so fast- but it really paid off in the end.
How would staying separated cause you not to get $?
My story is bizarre. My husband controlled everything in the marriage and he thought he’d kick me to the curb and give me nothing. The day I filed for divorce my life began to change . He no longer had the control- and justice would be served. My counselor says I have a powerful testimony because in the end I was victorious-/ and all his rights were ripped out of his hands.
I live in state of Washington and the law here says when you separate, each is responsible for their own bills and finances. When you divorce, after 20 plus years being together it is a 50/50 state. No questions asked- you each get half.
So when my husband retired I got half his pension and half his retirement savings.
Glad to hear it worked out so well for you. I am currently separated (not legally) from him for a year. After seeing a lawyer to discuss whether or not to file for legal separation or divorce, she advised to save my money on a legal separation if I think divorce is where I am headed. Also, a confusing thing at times to me, is he is currently still providing fully for myself and the children without being asked. His paycheck continues to come in and I am paying all the bills. He is very frugal personally, so it is a comfortable living for now. Lawyer says strategically to wait it out until our last underage daughter is a bit older. She is 15 and is the most important reason I am not filing as I don’t want her to have to spend every other weekend alone with him. (the other kids wouldn’t choose to be with him at all) Also, honestly, if I filed legally, I would likely not have as much money available to me. I was just wondering if somehow being separated not legally is putting me in danger financially? Do you happen to know?
Do you think he will continue to keep paying w/o court order?
I don’t think you have an issue with not being legally separated That is your option. The only thing I would be concerned about is what happens if he says, you need to come home or I won’t pay? Who do you have to protect you then??
I googled all this to find out about legal separation. It might be different in your state.
I understand you wanting to wait till your daughter is older. I was fortunate in that all my children were young adults by the time I filed. But I hear so many women tolerating g a destructive marriage until kids are grown. I do understand……..
It sounds like you have things handled for now. Now, the waiting game????
I am actually in our home. I asked him to leave. I guess I figured if he stopped providing access to finances, I would retain my lawyer and get started on proceedings. It would be a certain sign of a hardened heart. I think he is very concerned about how he is seen by his church and others and wants everyone to know that it is not he who is the problem. He is proving it by his self sacrificing of finances. He has made no effort at all to suggest how he might work at restoring the marriage. Instead he wants to focus on getting me to help him with his relationship with the kids. I don’t know what might happen financially in the future, but I want to be smart and also trust in my Lord as my husband. He took pretty good care of you didn’t He? 🙂
Yes. Getting out of the destructive marriage has been a huge blessing to my children as they see their mother becoming strong enough to stand up to the abuse/neglect. It has given them an example, and clarity to point out what was the truth of the “marriage”. It was not really a marriage, but a sentence. Actually, I knew my husband had never really cleaved to me, and indeed divorced me in his heart when I saw him for who he was and called it out in truth. That was a LONG time ago. Just got back from the beach today and my daughters (homeschool) said what a great time they had and were having in life. They said they were living the dream. That alone is worth all the trouble and pain. To see them have joy and hope AND clarity. Kids know when things are wrong and its not good for them if we insist they are wrong in their observations. I simply validated the divorced behavior my husband was walking in. It is not good for my daughters to grow up thinking they should expect to be treated as I was. In that light, finances are really secondary. I trust I will be provided for. Thank you Robin for this interchange. Living just below you. 🙂 The great Pacific Northwest!
Yes He certainly did. I had a terrific group of supporters and prayer warriors surrounding me. Have you considered starting to save some money just incase you need it??
I say that, but all I had to my name the day I filed was $200.00. The lawyer I believe was being used by God. He had real empathy for me and really took charge to get me a new life.
You are so right. Children first, finances next.
As I read your words, everyone of them could be mine. We have lived and survived and will thrive – very similar paths!!!!
Yes to saving $. I think h is relieved to not have any other cares besides working 8-5 job. I manage the home, yard care, (1 acre) ,education of our children and finances. I am able to set aside a little bit of money each month. It’s not much but it adds up. His retirement is not worth much and I think he will plan to continue working for quite some time. I expect in the next couple of years that I may either look to get some formal education to gain employment or just look for full time work somewhere with good benefits. I am 57 but have been very active most of my life and am in good health other than chronic stress. I have a confidence that comes from God that He has this next step in my life covered and I feel there is a blessing around the next corner. It’s just a sense, but I believe He has given it to me.
I love your Godly Confidence. I will agree in prayer with you, for what God has for you right around the corner.
I also homeschooled my two youngest while all this chaos was stirring even stronger. I don’t know how I survived those years!!!!
I have dialed back my expectations of curriculum achievement and simply work with math and writing. They love reading so that is not a problem. The rest of their learning is really interest driven and we follow what they want to learn more about. I am enjoying being truly present with them and thank God for this time I get to be with them.
Seems our commonalities continue Robin. It is a blessing getting to know you a bit better. Hope others are okay with all this chit chat. I have enjoyed it very much.
This is what this blog is for/ to connect and encourage and share our stories. I’ve enjoyed hearing your story and knowing you deeper!
i love, love, love this analgoy Leslie. thank you for it!
I don’t know anywhere in Scripture where God forces someone to repent. That is always a person’s choice. Even when God orchestrates painful circumstances like he did for Israel in the Old Testament or Pharaoh when he wanted him to let the Jews leave Egypt, their change was not permanent. It only lasted long enough until the painful consequences subsided.
Friend: What helped you to let go of hope without giving up that God was still good and still at work, even if the outcome didn’t turn out the way you wanted it to?
The only REAL hope that I have, the only sure thing in my life is that one day I will be in eternity with the king. The rest is merely my hearts desire this side of eternity. Sometimes i experience my desires and sometimes i don’t. this side of eternity is the enemies domain so anything that is painful and hurtful comes from the enemy and is never created by god. God cannot create evil only the devil can. so i face the truth of where the pain comes, experience those painful feelings and move forward onto the only sure thing…. Eternity, where none of this painful stuff will ever exist. the time this side of eternity is short which gives me hope that one day the painful things will come to an end. The joyful times come from my hope in eternity. the happy times are a treat from god and the painful times comes from the enemy that were either put onto me by someone else s sin or from my own sinful choices. My king never hurts me and that is the only thing that keeps me going this side of eternity. My only true hope is eternity with the King. that is the only thing that keeps me going in hard times is that i know one day the pain will really end.
it is extremely painful to be disappointed from false hope. It is less painful for me to accept the painful circumstances than to suffer the pain of disappointment from false hope. As leslie said that doesn’t mean that i don’t trust god. it means i live in reality which can be painful very often.
Janet,
You wrote: “It is less painful for me to accept the painful circumstances than to suffer the pain of disappointment from false hope.”
Indeed! How true it is that hope deferred makes the heart sick. Give me reality any day over the false hope.
Lori,
I guess I can’t speak for everyone, but I loved “peeking in” on the dialogue between you and Robin. It sounds like you have much in common and she is a little further down what looks like a dark road ahead…but she can turn around and tell you, “No, don’t be afraid! There is light this way, keep walking forward.” That’s invaluable!
I wanted to encourage you in a few ways regarding your previous couple of entries to Leslie.
You said:
“1. I bear deep deep grief and shame for participating in what I now know as “reactive abuse” … I beg God to restrain me from this and to give me strength to die to this practice…(etc.)” Your point #3. was similar.
Lori, you have finally wisely removed yourself from the situation that was provoking you to stumble and sin. You feel remorse and have repented. Please do not allow the enemy to load you down with guilt. Please be gentle and kind with yourself; as gentle and kind as you would be to someone else that lived through such abuse. You wouldn’t beat them up for their reactive abuse. You would say, “Yes; that was wrong. Understandable, but wrong. Now let’s focus on healing your heart. That’ll take some doing.”
I know for myself, I had to at one point make the boundary of not discussing any issues at all with my husband without a third party (counselor) present. I could not trust him, and I was so reactive I could not trust myself. I feel myself getting stronger in this area because the emotional and physical distance is allowing me room to heal.
You said:
I grieve the years of my life wasted…My freedom came the day I validated it myself… MY opinion of what my experience was needed to be enough. And thankfully, it was.
Yes, yes! So happy you know this!
You said:
“I hope to get stronger in my CORE (looking forward to introducing myself to this concept).”
Leslie has a video you can find on youtube called Building Your CORE strength that is helpful. You could also consider joining one of her online CORE groups.
You said:
“…I especially do not want to have to apologize to one whom continues to take NO responsibility whatsoever for his abuse or acknowledge the complaints against him and consider the possible validity in them (James? husband, others).”
I think it’s so healthy to recognize the people in our lives that do not take any responsibility at all when they have caused offense and make a boundary to protect ourselves.
I hope to learn more from you and the women on this blog.
You said:
“I, frankly, am not sure I am marriage material as I feel my heart has hardened toward being with him again. So many years of neglect, abuse, manipulation, deceit, betrayal, etc. etc. All I seem to sincerely hope for is that God can somehow save him sincerely (I think he uses religion as a cover-up) and forgive me for my reactive abuse in the past 8 years or so. I grieve the testimony I was not to him, but don’t really want another chance with him. Still tearful and tender here as I come face to face with the sadness of the situation. I am not sure it is okay to feel this way. Certainly would appreciate feedback if you have time.”
Lori, you don’t need to hope that God can forgive you: you need to believe He has based on the evidence: your confession, remorse and repentance, and His word to you in 1John 1:9. You are clean and free.
And regarding where you are at in your feelings about marriage: it’s completely understandable! God could do a miracle of changing your husband’s heart, and then changing yours, at any time. Even after a divorce. But today, based on the all evidence you have, change is very, very unlikely. Voices like Robin’s can help you know how to walk forward and give you hope on the journey.
You are free from condemnation, guilt, and accusation. You are surrounded by love and covered in grace. xo
TL,
Words fail me to say how thankful I am for your investment of time and care in your reply to me. It is so very difficult to let go of the burden of the knowledge of my part of the destruction. I wonder how Paul felt after being such a zealous destroyer of the people Christ died to save. I see how he allowed his grief to be the agent of receiving Christs pardon for him and how deeply he experienced the pardon of his sin from His Lord. How he was catalyzed by his experience of forgiveness and new found wholeness to preach to so many about Christs grace.
Thank you for the exhortation to walk in belief that I have been forgiven and that forgiveness is imputed due to repentance and godly sorrow and of course Christs positional authority to impute it.
As Aly said, I think my heart and head will need to hear this over and over. I receive this by faith. I agree with you now that I am clean and free from condemnation, guilt and accusation.
This is a familiar place to me as He is bringing to my rememberance the many times He has done this for me in the past where I thought my sins might be too damaging to His Kingdom or to others.
The best thing about heaven to me will be that I won’t be sinning against my Savior or others ever again…more tears….
You said: “Regarding where you are at in your feelings about marriage: it’s completely understandable! God could do a miracle of changing your husband’s heart, and then changing yours, at any time. Even after a divorce. But today, based on the all evidence you have, change is very, very unlikely. Voices like Robin’s can help you know how to walk forward and give you hope on the journey.”
Grateful for this also. It brings more clarity, peace and even hope.
Lori, I understand your struggle, and though I haven’t seen a reply from Leslie yet, to me, it seems that you are nowhere near ready for a reconciliation. You appear to still have a lot of healing to do. That will take time, and you can’t rush it. Put that item (reconciliation) on the shelf for now and don’t let it be a part of your goals. When/if the Lord wants you to reconcile, you will feel peaceful about it and you will feel ready. And h will, too. Right now, you are not. Relax, trust Him, and move forward.
JoAnn,
Invaluable insight. Thank you! You ladies have no idea how much you are helping me. I am copying and pasting into a file from various posts to collect your wisdom so I will have on hand for my reference.
Feeling more and more at peace with the process. Perhaps even a faint knowledge of ground underneath my feet.
Thank you!
T.L. really hit the nail on the head: your sin is forgiven, and all the shame and condemnation are straight out of the enemy’s mouth. Reject those thoughts! Let the past be done, and move on. There is so much help here, and T.L. and Robin have said it so well. Bless you, Sisters.
T.L and Lori;)
Not sure this will post…
T.L. Wrote:
“You are free from condemnation, guilt, and accusation. You are surrounded by love and covered in grace. xo”
I so agree and it’s very reasonable why your heart and head my need to hear this over and over, and that’s ok
You are so worthy of that healing! 💖
Aly,
Thank you for your continued love and care for myself and the women here. Your voice adds hope to my healing. I hope one day I can be of support to women who have walked this journey.
Lori, as I was out for my morning ride where the Lord speaks so clearly– He reminded me of something to share as it clearly reveals how Jesus cares for us, when we stop cooperating with abuse.
Ten years ago about– I left to go to work one day in a town 40 miles away, and I couldn’t bear to go home to that rage and control and ended up staying with a close friend. This, became my first separation without planning it ahead. It just happened. To make a long story short, thru one of my students, the Lord put me in a cottage/condo I so regret I never took pictures. It was a one room studio with sliding doors into bedroom and bath. It was filled with beauty and decor like I had never had in my own home. When the landlord found out I was in an abusive relationship and knew I had nothing– they completely furnished it with everything right down to putting scissors and pencils in the drawer. The Lord even provided a piano from someone I went to church with which was so amazing. I want you to understand God did this for me// in my desperate need to get away for rest. Beautiful lace curtains and large windows to overlook water and beautiful gardens- and a front porch covered with outdoor furniture and landlord brought me fresh veggies from garden all the time. I will never get over how far the Lord went to give me more then I needed. It was so over the top. The only reason I left was my daughter announced she was getting married so I went home to participate and be there for her. All this to say, God see’s us and knows our need. And is just wIting for us, to look to Him……….
Robin…dear Robin,
“I want you to understand God did this for me// in my desperate need to get away for rest.”
YES! desperate need for rest. More and more rest. So very weary from the battle to survive this.
A place AWAY sounds so wonderful. I am currently living in this home that he and his mother chose for us to live ( I spoke reservation and it was rejected flat out by his mother and himself. I still remember exactly where we were standing when they formed their bond against my voice) She assured me that her son could fix anything that might be in need of repair and praised me for not being like other new brides who wanted a nice new home.
I get the feeling that this home is not the one I want to remain in for much longer, however, my children know it as “home”.
I have no idea why I shared that story as it doesn’t seem to pertain at all to how the Lord so BEAUTIFULLY created a safe place for you. I love your description and feel as though the gift was something I received when you received it. I mean, it feels like your cottage gift was somehow given to me also. Does that make sense? I rejoice with you that you have such a sure experience of His great provision (lavish at that).
What to Him is a drop in the bucket, to us is lavish!
I imagine it is healing to you to recall the studio. Perhaps a picture of it isn’t so necessary after all if you can recall it’s details so vividly. I would have loved to hear you play the piano in that place! All for your Lord.
Thank you for sharing Robin.
Everyone’s story is an individual gift from the Lord. But when I filed I was heavily advised to stay in my home. I do even when I was quite fearful he might show up with rage and threats. I tell u this because the Lord gave me a safe home that was paid in full. My husband told the kids for years with his fist shaking– he would never leave his house. We believed hi
. My counselor says she’s never heard such a good story as mine. As the night before he was ordered to leave our home he stood in my eldest daughters house and said I will not leave my home. She knew God already worked it out, that he would be leaving in less then 24 hrs. My point is even if it’s not your favorite place to be- consider if it becomes all yours- you would be able to sell it and take the money to buy your new home. Just a thought
I really thought I would sell after divorce. But the Lord has led me into making my home ‘MINE NOW’ I’ve worked hard to achieve this and the Lord has always brought people to help me.
Aleea,
Thank you for this: “I always think about it as me, a sunken ship, inside an ocean and that ocean is God.”
I mean THANK YOU.
Thank you Robin.
Nancy,
You also said: “And the flip side is to allow ourselves to be cared for by The Lord and His children. So our heart gets filled with Love. We can guard our heart from leaking love but we also need to allow Love into our hearts.”
And…”But accepting this Love is no small ‘task’ for someone who has been mistreated for so long. Accepting that Love comes in the form of reading the amazing encouragement of sisters like T.L. and Aly. It means being tender towards yourself too, dear Lori. It’s no small thing to accept Love after being mistreated.”
Once again, on spot!
It is no small thing, but the largest thing I have allowed to date to happen for my good.
I cannot explain why it is nearly impossible to receive…but thank you for bringing this difficulty to light.
Perhaps it is because I have isolated myself due to shame/lack of trust (of anyone really…).
I find It helps to not have to be face to face with people here as I don’t think I can handle such raw exposure….awww geez, here come the tears again….I knew it, if I started crying, I might not stop….
The love here is so supportive, and at times so very intimate I feel I shrink back from it. It is foreign to me to be tended to in this manner.
Example:
Aly said: “It is good for your heart to be held, to be of focus.”
It took my breath away really, to hear that and to be seen in such an intimate manner. No wonder the tears have begun to flow. I am not only being seen, I am being touched and tended to in the most wounded places of my soul. The gentleness, and power of properly applied scripture and love is overwhelming really. It is hard to stay in its care and accept it into the places it needs to saturate.
They don’t feel like teeny steps at all to me. Quite the opposite. Yet I am grateful beyond words for the women here who love the Lord and serve Him from their places of woundedness and healing.
Nancy, you are one such sister to me.
Blessings of His peace and prayers for Gods guidance and presence in your walk with your h.
Thank you, Lori 🙂
Hi Lori,
A couple things come to mind as I read your latest posts. Well, first: when we are so deeply wounded and raw…it is hard to believe that there will be anything but that ever, because it has been so long and runs so deep. We actually get comfortable with our pain, in a way…and we feel so unworthy of being treated well. It was the same for me. As I opened up about my story to safe people, I had dear sisters and a counselor telling me how loved I was, accepted I was, worthy of being loved and treated well I was…and I remember it actually felt shocking at first. Our shame is so deep. It takes a long time to know that what we are all telling you is true: you are worthy of so much more than you have experienced.
Sometimes when we have a really hard time accepting a truth of God, like forgiveness, I think it can be really worthwhile to have kind of a formal time with God over it. For instance: agree to meet God alone at a set aside time and place, to listen to him and receive His forgiveness. Go out in nature, into beauty, if you can. Or just alone in a quiet room. Consciously affirm why you are there…quiet your heart, and listen to the still small voice of your Beloved tell you what He has already done on your behalf. Picture yourself giving him the box or burden of all the sins that have been “haunting you.” And picture Him taking it from you, relieving you of it—because He already has.
Also, there was a time in my life that I became aware, over and over again, of shame I was carrying because of sins I had committed after coming to Christ. The Lord showed my error in my thinking: deep down, I believed this: when I came to Christ, He cleansed me of my sins. He washed me. I was clean. And then I began to walk the new path of life with Him. But whenever I stumbled and fell, I thought He was soooo disappointed in me, as if he was saying, “Hey! C’mon! I washed you, stay clean! You are so disappointing to me!” He did his part, and I should be doing mine. But then he showed me this: “I died for you 2,000 years ago. I died for all your sins, before you turned to me, asked forgiveness, or even were born. Past, present, and future sins are all paid for–it is finished. Nothing you could ever do will make me love you more; and nothing you could ever do will make me love you less. I am not disappointed in you. I love you and am pleased with you, because I make you white as snow, and because I look on the heart.”
What is being represented to you in these “love letters to you” on this blog is the heart of Christ for you. You are so loved.
I hope this might help these truths sink in a little further, my dear sister. xo
Lori, I forget do u have an individual counselor?? Reading your last post to Nancy I so relate to how you feel. I remember when my counselor started using intimate kind words and how I refused them for the longest time. She knew I needed them so she kept saying them. I stil remember the day I stood up and said, okay I accept them. What a day of recognizing my woundedness………..
Lori, indeed, your body and mind do heal, and there are some things you can do to help. I get regular massages, because that helps my body to go into a deep relaxation, and to learn to trust touch, healthy touch. Daniel Amen, in his book about changing the mind (I can’t recall the exact title right now) talks about healing the limbic brain with listening to pleasant music. This happens while getting a massage, but you can also listen to comforting music any time you want to: driving the car, taking a walk, doing the laundry. It all helps. The very best thing, however, is to spend time in the Word of God, and to find some good verses that touch you and pray over them. The Word heals us, refreshes us and changes us.
Robin,
I do not have an individual counselor. My husband and I went together to 4 different counselors and the 5th counselor we went to was supposed to be for both of us but ended up being myself alone. Didn’t end well.
I sent an email to Patrick Doyle requesting a local recommendation in case he knows of one and it would be affordable. I think I might welcome that, just don’t have a lot of faith in them.
Lori,
I tried emailing Patrick Doyle twice to ask same and also about Skype counseling. Apparently he doesn’t return emails. You may want to call his office to ask for a recommendation.
Lori, I’ve been there, I went thru 20 counselors before I found the right one. I’ll ask my counselor tomorrow if she has any advice when looking for a counselor.
TL.
Thank you for your words and heart here. Hidden among some very helpful thoughts, You said:” It takes a long time to know that what we are all telling you is true: you are worthy of so much more than you have experienced.”
Okay, I believe you here. I will need to be patient then.
JoAnn,
Nice to hear some practical ideas to help the healing move further along. Hope to try some of them. Especially the Word of God. Massage sounds….fabulous…
Lori, when the abuse got out of control and it was making me constantly sick– I started the habit of getting in my car and going for long drives all alone. I would listen to Worship Music and let it pour over all my wounds, and slowly that time with the Lord started to heal me. It became such a special time for me I still take long drives 3-4 days a week, sit on a man top- turn cell phone off, and ask the Lord for healing. It’s been such a good habit, I can’t let go of it. Some of the best Worship and healing I ve received came in my car.
Robin,
” I still take long drives 3-4 days a week, sit on a man top- turn cell phone off, and ask the Lord for healing. ”
Awesome. Love that you let Him love you like this.
Lori;)
You’re so sweet! Your heart is so kind and I think myself and others here want you to know but to ‘feel loved’ and valued because God is at work in all of lives, daily!
You are being an amazing supportive sister in Christ by even your courage to share this journey. I feel privileged that I get to read your journey and we get to interact personally at some level. I’ve never been on a blog. You ladies are amazing🤗
This journey is painful at times and scary (that’s why we desperately need him and others) but it’s God’s redeeming love story that gets revealed and glorified~ regardless of where we are in the process.
My heart goes out to you as how hard it is to be vulnerable right now and be able to receive love, but you are receiving and you are blessing us!
Crying can be such a blessing too, sometimes those tears are buried inside and it’s so good to release the toxins, He invented tear ducts on purpose😍. Let them flow;) it can feel scary to cry out that pain but your not alone and we are here to encourage you!
Here is a quote I find inspiring:
“Sometimes when your in a dark place, you think you’ve been buried, but you have actually been planted.”
(The unbounded Spirit)
You can probably tell I’m a bit protective and justice ‘shaped’ … im working on it, 😠it’s very hard for me to watch fellow sisters find support, healing and compassion & the enemy to try to rob any of the ‘good things’ that God has for your heart and healing. 💜
I’m sorry for the added harm and triggering.
God is redeeming what was rightly yours for your mind and your heart!
Aly,
I never thought of crying as releasing toxins…but i think you might be right in that. Helps not to feel so fearful of it. Thank you.
As far as the added harm and triggering, all things work together for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.
It was stressful to be sure but it gave me insight into how my children might have experienced my justice based responses to their fathers dogmatic, never wrong and victim based beliefs.
I get how easy it is to engage, and I am thinking there are times it is necessary. I learned a lot through the discourse, but it was painful to see how it provided platform for him. No matter how much women tried, he would not see ANYTHING worth considering as perhaps wounding in his behavior, only how he was being wounded.
DejaVu……and hopeless to reconcile with such a one. More wounding all around.
Leslie has said somewhere about how the one who is able to admit their failing is the one who can be helped. I am happy and encouraged to see this is you.
I hope you feel forgiven and know that to be true.
Thank you for your care.
Lori;)
~The tears, they are good;) lots of evidence where they find the toxins in the tears. ~
You wrote:
“No matter how much women tried, he would not see ANYTHING worth considering as perhaps wounding in his behavior, only how he was being wounded.”
Some might think it was a platform I guess I was hoping for an example since it was in writing.
We have probably had many of those with our h’s but never in documentations. Which would make sense why we would be subject to more of the same.
It’s extremely hard for me to tolerate let alone watch or myself be used to be victimized by one who is clearly in their writing ‘betraying their own points of belief’
Betrayal~comes in many forms and think that needs to be clarified for healing.
I learned a lot and thank you for care and grace towards me😊
Aly,
Such good points you offer and there was much good in the exchange. Like, having it in writing. In fact, seeing it in writing is a powerful media. My husband recently wanted me to proof read a letter he was planning to send to our daughters (18 and 15). He even said he thought God wanted him to ask me to proofread them. I graciously refused. Let them see his own words to them. Let him be responsible for his own manipulations, blaming and guilting. It was amazing to hear their responses to his writings and how freely they could share their opinions of appal, outrage, disbelief and insights into how he was trying to blame them and make them responsible for the lack of relationship. I intentionally sat back to just listen to them respond to each other. I thought of how our dialogue here in this forum was helping me to be validated in my observations. I so love how you ladies chime in and bring even further clarity to my sight. I loved seeing my daughters validate eachother and have the freedom to be authentic in their responses to each of their letters.
I asked questions, validated and encouraged their support of each other. I am learning. They seem fairly healthy and detached. They certainly didn’t take the bait that somehow they were at fault. This is where they were most appalled.
“Betrayal~comes in many forms and think that needs to be clarified for healing.”
Yes, Aly. I so agree and saw you work for that clarity in your exchanges with the other blogger. I also believe I witnessed my daughters give each other that gift as they offered their support to the one they loved.
At one point in the letter my h said: “If you can’t trust your father, who can you trust?”. They both laughed at the same time and said…I can trust my sisters, brother, mother.
I learned a lot from the posts and am learning a lot from you ladies about grace. It is powerful!
Lori, you are so wise! I love the way you handled your husband’s letter to your daughters, allowing him to sit in his own “mess” and solve it (or not!) for himself. I love that you trusted your daughters to evaluate it for themselves, their insight and wisdom, and your validation. Sounds so wise and healthy!
TL Thank you for the affirmation. It breaks my heart to see the chasm between my children and their father. I used to try to build a bridge, or get him to work on building a bridge to me and his children. No more. I just weep for the distance. All these years he had to build a relationship. I know now how I was enabling him not to work on it by my ongoing pleas to him to do something. I was just seen as the problem and he wanted me to be quiet all the more. My daughter (18) said she thought it seemed like he was writing the letter because he felt obliged or something. Like he was doing it to show someone else that he was trying. She didn’t trust his motive was sincere. I didn’t trust it either. He continued to lay the responsibility on his daughters to reach out and trust him with their feelings. He is virtually a stranger to them and the chasm is deep and wide. Somehow it is their job to leap it? I think it is his job/privilege to build the bridge. I don’t think he started by telling them they need to leap. It is freeing to let them have their own honest responses and simply validate where I recognize healthy thinking is. Any more input from me might be me overlaying my disappointments onto their realities. That would be too much for me if I was a child.
Thanks TL for the affirmation.
I agree!!
Good job Momma!
Sounds like those daughters are smart like their Mom! ☺️
Julie commented about “LDS is Mormon, not Biblical Christian resource.” Just to clarify, I’m LDS which is what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is called, or Mormon. I’m a Christian, as are those of my faith. I believe and read the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon, which is another testimont of Jesus Christ. These scriptures can be found on LDS.org but if you’d like to use Mormon.org it is a good resource for those not familiar with my church. It’s such a blessing for all of us to have good Christian resources that can uplift us as daughters of God! I know my belief in Jesus Christ has been my strength through my trials and as I go forward in faith in a new chapter of my life. It has been helpful to have support of other women going through similar challenges as myself. I love this scripture passage in Isaiah 41:10-13, which is a reminder to me right now that I will be strengthened by the Lord in my trials. Thank you Leslie and everyone for helping us all with your positive comments!
lori,
I am curious..you mention that you are 57 yrs old. I am 50. I struggle with this everyday because I think to myself…what can I do at this older age to financially support myself? Do I go back to school to become certified in something? At my age? Or do I take a full time job, probably at minimum wage, to gain health benefits? Ive never worked during my 20 year marriage, so I am not exactly marketable. Any advice?
Its scary going out into the workplace at this age without skills. That is why I am still contemplating staying seperated as opposed to divorce. i wd keep my medical benefits with seperation. But my share of his pension wd not be 100% protected, as it wd be with a divorce decree. So the question becomes, do I secure my future by divorcing him to secure the pension, or stay seperated for a year and see how things go…hoping God will bring him to repentenance. We have been seperated for two months now, and he is still hard hearted and prideful and still blame shifting and justifying. Perhaps he needs more time without me to realize what hes lost. Idk, he may come to take responsbility. Its tough to know…do I wait it out for a year and see? Why cant I bring myself to divorce this man, who continues not to show me any signs of effort on his part.
Rose my friend, your thinking isn’t all wrong , we have to start where we are today. Have you considered taking baby steps, and find one thing you can do on your own?
I really truly was exactly where you are now. I depended on my husband for everuthing, and had no self identity of my own. But I started at the beginning, doing one small thing. When I was successful and felt good about it- I tried one more thing. You can do this . Be kind to yourself. Be loving to yourself. Accept where you are and reach out on this blog– and these sisters that are holding each other up/ will grab your hand and support you. You are lovely just where you are and Jesus has a plan to help you. That’s a promise!!!!!!
Robin,
Again, thank you for this. I remember when I was very newly separated thinking much the same thoughts as Rose. I, too, was very dependent on my husband for nearly everything maintenance wise in the house and on the property.
Baby steps, and the Lord seemed to know what I could handle. Each time a repair was needed, I asked the Lord (my new husband) to guide me or show me what needed to be done. Sometimes I called a repair man, sometimes He showed me how to fix it myself. Since I am only separated and not divorced, I feel a responsibility to my husband in providing him information on home repair and include him in on the decision of how to secure repair. If I end up divorced, I will no longer need to involve him in these decisions. For now, I am slowly gaining confidence back in my intelligence, problem solving skills and am given the opportunity to involve my daughters in the process and challenges of home upkeep. They are gaining confidence in their abilities as well.
Baby steps = Big steps.
Alie,
So agree with your comment;) that’s for posting
It’s is not honorable to the wife or husband (sacred marriage union) for a wife to honor a dishonorable man’s behavior.
Rose,
First I want to say how precious you are to the Heavenly Father.
Second I want to say how precious you are to this community.
Third I want to say, I think you and I will do well to strengthen ourselves in that knowledge.
I don’t know what your profession or experience of faith is.
My confidence comes from my faith in God and the truth and sureness of His word.
Psalm 10:18 has encouraged me to believe: As a good God. He is the helper of the fatherless (v. 14), of those who have no one else to help them and have many to injure them. He has appointed kings to defend the poor and fatherless (Ps. 82:3), and therefore much more will He do so Himself; for He has taken it among the titles of His honour to be a Father to the fatherless (Ps. 68:5), a Helper of the helpless.
With that solid ground to stand on, the practical is bound to work out. That is not to say I don’t shake in my boots when I think of the future dear Rose. It means that my view of the future has changed. Instead of picturing myself alone, impoverished, unusefull or friendless, I picture my Lord with me every step of the way. I picture Him in the imaginary setting the enemy wants to terrify me with. This is where my hope, strength and courage come from. The knowledge that He will never leave me or forsake me and He has a plan for my life.
Onto the practical questions you asked: ” Ive never worked during my 20 year marriage, so I am not exactly marketable.”
Oh, I disagree Rose.
What character traits do you have? Are you punctual? Trustworthy? Diligent? Loyal? Hard working? Learn quickly? Bi-Lingual? Intelligent? Have a good memory? Organized?
Just because we may not have worked to gain a specific skill set does not mean we cannot learn them. Just because we have not yet gained a career does not mean we are not “marketable”.
Square your shoulders dear sister, lift your chin a bit in your value. Just from your entries here on this blog, I see you are compassionate and gracious. That alone is employable in the right setting. Now lets add intelligent and responsible as you are clearly those also. I would hire you. Also, sometimes our age can be an asset because we come from a generation that knows the values I listed above are important work ethics. We do not have the same sense of “entitlement” that seems to be more prevelant in the younger generation.
Health Insurance can be gained in various ways:
1. Full time employment with those benefits. I don’t know where you live, but we have Costco Stores here and I have heard they treat employees very well.
2. If you choose to become a full time college student, it may cause you to qualify for free health care and government assistance with power bill, food etc. because of having a low or no income.
You asked: “So the question becomes, do I secure my future by divorcing him to secure the pension, or stay separated for a year and see how things go…hoping God will bring him to repentenance.”
I would see these as 2 separate questions:
1. Do I stay separated for a year and see how things go hoping God will bring him to repentance?
This question is a personal one and this is a good place to ask for help in answering. I, personally don’t know. I am in the middle of asking this and seeking answers also. (1 year and 1 month separated myself)
2. Which option brings me financial security or helps me become more financially independent. Separation or divorce?
This question may best be answered by an attorney in your state. Perhaps there is one whom will see you for a free consultation. I have heard of women getting college education partially or full paid for after having been married as long as you have and facing the real situation of needing or wanting to gain skills for employment.
Finally, I want to end by repeating that you are not alone Rose, and you never will be. Even if no people are with me, when I turn to Him, He has a way of making His presence felt in my most lonely moments.
As afraid as you feel about the future, perhaps it is the very thing He is calling us to and it requires we step in faith in His plan for our lives.
Numbers 6:25 “The LORD bless you, and keep you; The LORD make His face shine on you, And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance on you, And give you peace.’…
Lori, I repeat:
Your life is beauty from ashes. Wisdom, compassion, strength and grace. So beautiful. 2Cor.4:7-10.
TL
Thank you. LOVED the scripture.
Lori it was to escape the stress in my home- but it became such a quiet time that filled me up, I couldn’t stop……. icontinually am amazed at how the Lord leads us in all our needs.
Rose and Lori- Lundy Bancroft has written a book, and in a chapter he talks about what a spouse can do while their waiting to be if the destructive spouse is going towards repentance and truth. It truly became a 2nd Bible for me because I didn’t know how to do anything on my own. He speaks of ways we can invest the time we use to use on our spouse for more productive things in building ourselves up. I’m not home right now- but I’ll send more info on it tonight. That chapter really empowered me TO STEP OUT.
But I agree with Lori, as the need arises, God leads us to solutions and people that can help us!!!!
Robin, I get you. I too have had this practice during my childhood as a result of the stress in my childhood home. I had a bike I rode to the only place I could get away to that was close enough to home that my parents would allow me to venture. Seldom did they even know I was gone. It was a cemetary that happened to have a beautiful canal. I would write and draw and cry. One day I rode my bike deeper into the roads traveling the cemetary and I saw a large statue in the distance, so I rode to it. It was Jesus. Someone had done and amazing job sculpting Him, because He was very life like to me. I would climb up to where He was on His platform above the tombstones and I would hug Him and hold His hand. Tears are now flowing again. I never shared this story before, because it seems so strange and perhaps morbid. But He was my only comfort. Tears and more tears. It is, I am sure, what kept me safe and sane.
Robin,
I am sorry “home” was a place you needed to escape from. I am thankful you are now at “home” in your “home”.
Beautiful Lori.
My counselor tells me let the tears roll- they are cleansing you……
Robin,
Thank you for blessing me so by calling me beautiful.
Lori, I often laugh to myself. I know I don’t need to leave my home anymore to run from stress. I tell myself out loud// silly you live alone.
But my legs and feet move out the door to the car without my permission. It’s so ingrained in me if I don’t do it, I feel cheated of that special time.
This is for sure off topic, but I received an email from my h today that has me on edge and I hoped it was okay to share it here to gain some feedback from those who may be willing?
He said: “Lori, I woke up a little after 3:00 am this morning and it was as if I heard you calling for help. Is there anything that you need that I can help with? If so, please let me know! I love you and pray God’s richest blessings and grace be upon you and work through you. May you experience His powerful love for you this day! Blessings to you!”
I am off balance and on guard with this. I feel unclear about it’s purpose even though at face value the purpose appears Godly and for my good. I don’t trust it or know what to do with it. I feel very conflicted by it. What is this?
It sure sounds good, and I understand your confusion, so if that were addressed to me, I would simply take it at face value, maybe reply “Thanks for your concern and prayers, but I am fine. ” It kinda sounds like he is trying to pull you back. Just remind yourself why you are separated. Sleep well, Dear Sister!
JoAnn, Thanks for your objective opinion here. I think that is a great response. Gonna go with it as it feels odd to me.
Sounds like Bait.
He’s fishing for some attention. I’d try not to get drawn in.
I also just realized there’s a similarity between your H did and something my H has done. When I’m ‘ out of line’ and H can tell his standard arguments and bullying aren’t crushing me into submission, there have been a several times where I gotten a warning ‘from God’ afterwards.
H TRULY believes his own propaganda machine. Then I’m left to discern what’s real and what’s not. The worst part is if the kids were involved 😔 Lori, I believe your H was trying to spook you so you’d fearfully come to him for protection. No, no. From what I’ve read – he’s the one you need protection FROM!! That’s a trick from the devil.
To Lori: go for it! Massage is great for not only relaxing but it helps the body and the soul to heal. Grace be with you.
🌺🌺🌺🌺🌺🌺
Robin, have you tried going to the web site for The American Association of Christian Counselors (AACC.org)? There is a directory there where you can look for a counselor in your area.
Sorry, Sisters, the web site is aacc.net.
Yes I have a great counselor. It was for one of the ladies on here. Hopefully she’ll see this!!
Lori,
I’m so sorry… so rattling and to me it’s not off topic.
Hmm I reread it a few times.. is that how he normally speaks?
Sounds a bit ‘overspiritualized’ maybe that’s my gut talking.. I could be wrong…
I guess if you decided to reply.. what do you think you would say?
…
💜
Aly,
I really hesitated to share that email here as I thought it was off topic. I so appreciate having a place to run these things by when they come my way. Totally out of the blue. He has been silent to me regarding “us” for nearly a year.
You asked: “is that how he normally speaks?”
Great question. Thank you for asking.
That is how he normally speaks when he either wants me or the kids to supply something for him or wants to be seen as credible and spiritual.
Your question helped me answer why I am feeling uncomfortable.
Thank you.
If you don’t need help, then likely it was not a message from God, right?
On another site, they had red flags from letters and one was always ending with a “God bless” message. They think you can’t refute that or you’d be refuting God Himself (or should I say god himself as in the h). People do that truthfully, but if it comes from a manipulator, it’s like patting your head. (notice the guys that come on here usually do that)
Or, if you think he’d even listen, you could say,”I’ve told you hundreds of times that I need your help and how, you don’t have to ask again. Just do it.”
Connie, your response has me chuckling. I love it.
Lori,
I’m glad you posted;) thanks for sharing… hope my questions are ok🤗
I deal with similar things from family..on going..
It’s hard because it pulls at the heart grief sometimes.
Usually,
(for me)especially if there’s a pattern…
it’s their attempt to ‘feel good’ or need to feel like the (good person)
Sometimes I don’t even respond. Because it can feel so manipulative ~
And in some of my circumstances it has been for a nugget of connection.
This is just part of my journey.. so not saying it’s the same for you.
Stay sane and safe precious ladies💗
PS:
Just to clarify the nugget of connection is again what ‘they need’ it’s rarely about the other person that they have mistreated or chosen to break trust with.
Connie, JoAnn and Aly,
I am so glad I posted now also. I really thought it was too bothersome, but it did rattle me and your feedback has had an invaluable stabilizing effect on me.
Connie: “If you don’t need help, then likely it was not a message from God, right?” That was so simply true it had me chuckling also.
JoAnn: ” I love to laugh also…humor is healing.
Aly: 1. “their attempt to ‘feel good’ or need to feel like the (good person) HUGE way in which he operates. Thanks for that. He is fairly masterful at fooling a lot of people, himself included. He had me fooled for many years.
2. “in some of my circumstances it has been for a nugget of connection.”
These are very insightful ideas. Could be #2, or a combination or even something not spoken of here yet, but
I am going with #1 in this case. It is just too overspiritualized, you are right. It is very familiar again to me. Perhaps the time away from him has found me forgetting how he operates…I so don’t want to have to understand how a manipulative mind works.
Aly,
“Just to clarify the nugget of connection is again what ‘they need’ it’s rarely about the other person that they have mistreated or chosen to break trust with.”
Thanks for that. Spot on.
How nice of him to remind you from time to time of his manipulative ways 😉
JoAnn, so appreciate the humor. We have to laugh sometimes–it keeps us from losing our minds! 🙂
Lori, I get this similar tactic–it’s sad because they really believe their own “goodness.” But if you wait long enough, they will want something and not get it, and the nasty brat comes back. -_-
TL,
“it’s sad because they really believe their own “goodness.” But if you wait long enough, they will want something and not get it, and the nasty brat comes back”
No kidding. 🙁
Oh JoAnn,
THANK YOU for saying that!!!! I laughed out loud and am still chuckling. This will be etched in my mind for some time I am sure. Like a wild card, I will remember it when I need a good laugh and a good bit of wisdom!
I have a dry and sarcastic sense of humor also, so it did reach my funny bone.
Yes;) so agree laughing is so important… not to avoid but to see the reality in it.
Have any of you seen Kristin Kutznic
YouTube
How to raise a brat! 😉
There’s also some great ones..
4 ways to deal with a bully.
I laughed pretty hard😂
Lori, when I separated I made a no contact rule-/ till I was ready. I knew he would manipulate me and sure enough he tried everytime.
For women who have children the dad needs to talk about- it’s simple to say I can accept your emails about our children but I must insist during the separation that this is my time for complete rest.
Robin,
I am pondering your sentence: ” I can accept your emails about our children but I must insist during the separation that this is my time for complete rest.”
Thank you.
Lori, you are so welcome. You blessed me today too. Anyone that really knows me knows I am an advocate for saving children out of a destructive environment. Too many parents do not see the critical choice there is/ to protect our children from abuse. Your words this morning made me smile for hours. You are a healthy Mom😜
Lori,
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to me. I cant believe I mattered that much. I am so deeply touched at how much love and support is shown here on this site. The fact that you ladies understand exactly how I feel brings me such comfort and peace. Thank you….
Lori, I want to ask you about something..you mentioned that you have been seperated for a year and one month. Can you please share.. what have you learned over this past year? Have you seen any changes at all in your husband? What is your relationship like now? Is reconciliation a possibility at this point, or do you plan to continue seperation? I ask because it seems to me, these men have two choices…they can either come to realize what they have lost, put aside their pride, humble themselves, repent and as Leslie would say “have a change of heart and a change of habit” OR… they can become angry, bitter and resentful; remain hard hearted and continue blame shifting, excusing, justifying, etc. with no remorse and no responsibility. Which of the two have you seen with your husband?
Rose, dear dear Rose,
You said: “I cant believe I mattered that much. I am so deeply touched at how much love and support is shown here on this site. The fact that you ladies understand exactly how I feel brings me such comfort and peace. Thank you….”
This is how I also feel about this group. What a blessing of love, wisdom, availability and healing they have been to me. I cannot believe what a treasure trove of beautiful, Godly women are here to support and help heal. I am blessed beyond words.
You asked me: “Can you please share.. what have you learned over this past year?”
I will try dear Rose.
I have learned this past year:
1. It is good to take care of myself and to validate my own voice inside regardless of what anyone else thinks.
2. God is for me and He is for my husband. Separation was something I believe (in my situation) most pleased God during this season. He wanted the destruction to stop.
3. I don’t have to know all the “why’s” about everything ( I am very motivated to gain knowledge and understanding ).
4. God is guiding me in HIS way.
5. My way of staying and seeking change (I tried EVERYTHING) was only enabling the destruction.
6. God can take the ashes of my life (caused by my sin and others sin against me) and make something beautiful from it.
7. God is perfect in His faithfulness to me. I have peace in His provision. (Not at first, but for now I do)
And: “Have you seen any changes at all in your husband?”
No. I have seen him start going to church every Sunday and he participates in 2 men’s bible study/prayer groups. However, his interactions (he writes letters and emails, phone calls etc. to the kids and me) are unchanged. If anything, he appears more angry about his victimization and is desperately trying to get me to teach the kids it is important to relate to their father. He continues to not take a single bit of responsibility for any damage done and indeed appears very lost as to being able to identify what he has broken. It is everyone else’s job to find their way back to him. 🙁
And: “What is your relationship like now?”
For me, it is better as I am no longer responding to him in the sin of reactive abuse. It is a new term for me and I understand more about this destructive practice I was involved with. With very little contact to him (necessities of house maintenance at times or financial decisions), I am not sucked into his practice of devaluing me in the many ways he has learned to. I am not strong enough yet to be that close to the edge of his destructive vortex. I fall in nearly every time. It has been a deep grieving process as I have let go of the idea that we might ever be able to reconcile, and as I am accepting that excruciating possibility, I have come to realize it wasn’t a marriage covenant after all. He broke it in so many ways and seems to have no idea at all (how convenient for him) what he has done. Our relationship is currently a business one.
And: “Is reconciliation a possibility at this point, or do you plan to continue seperation?”
Both. I see it as a possibility even if I were to divorce him. However, to be reconciled in a marital way, both of us have much work to do and I can only focus on the work God has called me to right now. I know it is impossible if I don’t do that work, so that is what I will worry about for now. If he doesn’t change, from where I am sitting right now, to me it doesn’t seem reconciliation is possible. I can’t see that far down the road yet, so there must be a reason I can only see the few feet ahead of me that I am afforded to see at this time.
And: “Which of the two have you seen with your husband?”
I have seen him, as the man you describe In your very accurate words, “they can become angry, bitter and resentful; remain hard hearted and continue blame shifting, excusing, justifying, etc. with no remorse and no responsibility.”
Just an added note ( I know this is long Rose), just because my husband may not appear to be changing (going to church seems to make him very happy to appear “good”, without the effect of true heart change), does not mean he won’t or that your husband won’t, but given the lack of ongoing behavior change proven over time and the lack of him appearing grateful to have a chance to repair the brokenness, I am not going to be holding my breath.
I think we will know it if and when our husbands are worthy of the marriage covenant GOD called them to respect.
Rose, I weap for your descriptions of your h sexual abuse and torture of your personhood. The physical pain you endured during these time and the unspeakable things that happened behind the closed doors of your marital bed. These are places of such deep betrayal and trauma. Please take this time to find necessary healing for yourself. That he continues to expect crumbs of bread (kisses and hugs from you) for his appetite just tells me he is not sorry, but feels entitled to your “services.” You are right to say no to this.
I am weaping here as I know what this feels like to be treated as a whore. I am weaping because our minds were so manipulated and abused before we would ever participate in this type of submission and humiliation.
It is wrong on every level and I want to say something to you from your story that I have been thinking about all day .
Rose, somewhere inside of you, you found the strength to separate yourself from his behavior. You got out! BRAVO!
Still tears are flowing that you have survived and you are demanding not to be treated as a whore. The amount of strength you have inside is maybe not known to you yet, but may I ask you a question now?
Where did that strength come from?
Many here including myself are holding you up in prayer. I have more questions than answers right now, but I trust you and I are on the right path.
My love to you and more importantly, I pray you experience Gods great love and peace to you precious sister.
Lori and Rose,
My messages are so often “out of time rhythm” of the flow of things, because I am not in the U.S.
But I wanted to say to you Lori, that reading all that you wrote above (11:56 pm) to Rose was just beautiful. So encouraging and beautiful to see your strength and insight and wisdom and compassion. You have a beautiful heart, Lori.
Rose, I hope Lori’s email encouraged you as it did me. I hope your beautiful heart is gaining strength, courage, and hope in God alone.
What your husband has done to you is not your fault. And God hates it. He hates when husbands do violence to their marriage covenant, to their wives. They dishonor their wives and they blaspheme his holy name. Your husband has disqualified himself from the privilege of being married to God’s precious daughter. Whether he can or will choose to become qualified is up to him, not you. May you be given great confidence to move forward with your one precious and sacred life before God.
Rose have you read Lundy Bancroft books?? They were so helpful for me. The one that got me in the counselors office was- Do I stay or Go?? As soon as I find my copy, I’ll send u a few quotes that empowered me to start making baby steps. He is a secular author who has worked with men therapy groups, and I really appreciated hearing from a man with that kind of experience with destructive men.
Robin,
Thank you for the Bancroft reference. I read a few of his quotes and plan to purchase his books.
T.L. Robin, Lori,
Ladies, may I ask you something…how long do we wait to see if our spouses will turn the corner and finally show some sign of a changed heart? At what point do we say to ourselves….ENOUGH..NO MORE and file those papers that will end our marriage? What does it take to get to that point? What has to happen? And how do we not question our decision by always asking ourselves…would he have changed if I’d just hung in there a little longer? What should I have done differently? Did I try hard enough? How do we get to that place of peace with our decision…knowing this is not God’s plan for marriage. Especially without infidelity, how can one rationalize divorcing their spouse? This battlefield of the mind consumes me everyday. I want to be clean before the Lord.
Dear Rose,
I am just recently (a few months) separated from my husband, though we were “in-house separated” before that, as Robin called it. I have been married over 30 years, so you can see, it took a very long time for me. I think it’s true that we begin to change when the pain of remaining the same is greater than the fear of changing. I finally arrived at that point. I began to ask questions: why am I allowing this to happen to myself? Does God support abuse and oppression? What is it about me that allows this to go on?
I started reading about co-dependency, and about being the adult child of an alcoholic. I reached out to a counselor, and her support helped very much.
Your fear of being alone sounds like satan’s biggest weapon against you. An effective means of fighting fear is to meet it head on. First, ask yourself: what is it I am afraid of? What is the worst that can happen? —and whatever it is, Jesus will never leave you, and so you have everything and are safe. And then defy the fear and step right into it; i.e. purposefully rebuke it, and make a plan to go spend a week alone on a retreat somewhere and prove to yourself and hell that you can do this; you will survive.
If that is too scary right now, then you need support. Lots and lots of support. Great to start here, but you need to find a counselor and friends near you who can support you and encourage you in your growth.Some things are confusing right now. Bad theology has confused you and kept you trapped. Just admit you don’t understand everything and don’t try right now. Things will become clearer little by little as you reach out and step out.
Please, Rose, avail yourself of resources online and in your community, many of which are free. Your focus needs to be firmly on you and your growth right now; getting stronger and healthier. Set your husband and marriage to the side. Your marriage will never be healthy unless it has 2 healthy people in it. Start with yourself. That’s all you have control over. Baby steps, one foot in front of the other. God’s grace and love and strength will come underneath to support you.
Online, on youtube, listen to Leslie’s videos; she has so many helpful ones. Also Patrick Doyle and Lundy Bancroft. Many of your questions you asked will be answered by these destructive relationship experts. It’s not your fault, Rose. Your husband’s choices to be mean and abusive and unrepentant are not your fault. You have no idea yet how much that is true. But keep learning. Things will become clearer.
You don’t need to worry right now about divorce and rationalizing it. You just work on getting strong and healthy.
Embracing you tightly in my heart, and walking alongside in prayer. You are stronger than you think…
TL
I didn’t even know where to start trying to answer Rose’s very legitimate need for answers. Thank you for sharing your insights. Another copy/paste for me.
Especially “It’s not your fault, Rose. Your husband’s choices to be mean and abusive and unrepentant are not your fault. You have no idea yet how much that is true. But keep learning. Things will become clearer.”
Robin,
No, Im not familiar with this author. But I will google him and look into his books. I would love to hear some helpful quotes from the book. I look forward to it. thank you so much
Rose, I think this is individual, and God might lead each of us differently. But there were definite steps we can take. Number one I realized it was I who needed to change. I can control me- so I set off to learn how to confront Bibically and quit tolerating disrespectful behaviors. I asked him to find a counselor, which he went a few times and stopped. I talked to him and set boundaries which only caused him to rage and control more. I separated once for a year and it embittered him. The 2nd separation was in/house where we had separate bedrms and separate lives. That was a complete waste of time and caused him more bitterness. By this time he had lost more or all control of me. He committed road rage scaring me to death in downtown Seattle traffic. That was the last straw for me, and I joined the local women’s shelter. He just grew and grew in rage and control and bitterness. I think when I had done the things Leslie suggests in her books, to no response or change of mind from him, I knew it was time to quit hoping in something that wasn’t going to happen. When I filed for divorce, I did so feeling strong and knowing removing myself from participating with his constant chaos, was reasonable and if he ever had a change of behavior a 2nd marriage would be possible. I did not start the divorce. He did when he broke the marriage covenant and did not honor his wife. I am sorry, very sorry he did not have a change of heart. My life today is a life of freedom and a life of choice. I am surrounded by people who love and support my choices.
Rose, I’ll look for it tomorrow. Another thing I’d suggest, is can u do something for you out of the ordinary? Something independent from your husband, something to love yourself.
Robin,
I don’t know really how to love myself. I am such a mess. I am so insecure and have low self esteem..that’s why I always care way too much if people don’t seem to like me. I’m too sensitive, always getting my feelings hurt. I’m codependent on my husband and my teenage children. I cling to my 17 yr old daughter so tightly. Soon she will be driving and then I will lose more of her..I cringe to think about it. I don’t know how I willl ever learn to let go of her; then I will be alone. This aloneness causes me such terrible anxiety and panic attacks. That’s my worst fear…To be alone. That’s why I have a tendency to let so much go (things I know are so wrong and unhealthy in this abusive marriage) because the alternative is to be alone if I choose not to accept it any longer. I wish I could stop my fears from overwhelming me, to the point I can’t eat or sleep. Just feel hopeless and severely depressed because I don’t see a way out for me. I think I’m too scared to divorce him. I’m scared of living the rest of my life alone, I’m scared of financially supporting myself, I’m scared I might make the wrong choice. I really don’t have a support system and no family (no parents or siblings) It’s just me. Sorry..I went way off topic from the question you asked me.
Rose,
I’m so sorry for what your going through and all the very wise comments you have received are SO true given the factets of these relationships. Such precious women who know so much and can relate to what your going through and yes Right WHere you are!
It’s so good your here and brave to share your journey, so much care and love and certainly help in getting stronger and making healthier decisions for you and your children. You are so not alone. And being scared is very normal and it says your ‘not desensitized’ and who wouldn’t scared be given the situation either to have hope or not. I think we can all relate to being in places of such fear. The ladies that posted about focusing on you is so true and will be good for your heart and you begin to listen to your needs again.
Just so I’m not speaking to a different Rose,
Did you post several days ago about your husband not paying the mortgage and you losing your home and your teenagers are devasted. You are currently separated…
That you served him divorce papers … hoping he would wake up
But he has gotten more bitter angry and not repentive in many ways?
T.L., Amen and amen! Well said. Let’s all pray for Rose to find the Lord in the midst of all this pain and fear. And to find herself in the process.
Bless you, Dear Rose.
T.L.
I so agree with your words of Love to Rose.
You wrote to Rose:
“Bad theology has confused you and kept you trapped. Just admit you don’t understand everything and don’t try right now. Things will become clearer little by little as you reach out and step out.”
Makes me think of this song ~
This song so encouraged me along my journey and reinforced my heart and identity in Him💖
I hope it blesses each of one you ( if you don’t already know it.. you probably do)
The song is
OCEANS, by Hillsong United
Here is it copied and pasted.. I hope I did it correctly.
If not you can look it up on google.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1RQciil7B0&sns=em
Prayers and healing for you all calling upon His name!
Hi T.L.
I wanted to respond to your question given and the state of your separation.
You’ve mentioned your familiar with Patrick Doyle, in order to keep this short, rather than some of my longggg responses I thought I would post a video of his which gives so much of what ‘internally’ my h was so so bonded to!
The video is on YouTube
Titled: The cause of Self Doubt Patrick Doyle -the dove.us.
I’ve mentioned before he was able to only go so far in what I call ‘false starts’
Given the car we were in so to speak.
Another way would be a ‘shell of recovery’
Which for me was deception hiding deception… based on his work addiction and self protecting and perfectionism.
P. Doyle explains the level of shame a person can have and how destructive that person will go to stay there..
Change or not change.
The behaviors he has today is he has the ability to self reflect~
Look back at behaviors and see wow.. I can’t believe I was that warped and that controlling!!
Untimately for him his fear was fueling his control. As yes lots of it has to do with this.
He certainly had God in a box because of his irrational fears making such false assumptions that it was difficult for him to see his significant to God.
When you’ve shared more details of the environment of your marriage with him, my heart just breaks that you were not seen, valued and controlled even down to the frugality of you not being able to give freely.
! But also my heart rejoices that you have found truth and freedom where you are finding your way~ regardless if your h decides too look at his behavior or not.
I am a pretty sensitive person and I have a lot of compassion to offer but my h underestimated the strength that God was placing in me.
My husband today ~ even though he still walks an ‘intensive program’ as he has the contrite heart that never wants to become that h to me and be so destructive (even if it’s not so visible)
When an h can admit abusive patterns ~ that’s usually ‘a start’ of the journey and especially see the collateral damage that is done and begin to walk a process of restitution without any demands or expectations .. then they are at a start in my opinion.
A shame identity for my h was certainly at the root of this, and it’s certainly something he knows how easy he can fall into a mindset of ‘self’
I have heard and watch many other precious women personally walk a similar road that you have been exposed to.
Those marriages have deteriorated and the h continued to get sicker and more and more demanding ~ on every aspect. Women who are much much later in life having no identity or place to be valued and cherished in the one place that God desires them to feel safe and protected by their h! This isn’t to replace God, but to align with God.
It took a lot of healthy growing men and men mentors counselors etc to help my h grow out of those childlike deep rooted behaviors.
It took me standing my ground~ regardless of ‘the outcome’ and knowing my value and worth!
Goodness sorry this is long hopefully I answered your questions .,, you might have to ask me again😊
T.L God is for you and I know you are clear on that! Sometimes in this process it’s nice to hear the reminder…Thanks for all of your heart you graciously share with us;)
PS: just to clarify my comment … not any of you here..
“I have heard and watch many other precious women personally walk a similar road that you have been exposed to”
The level of control and sickness grew to a h not letting a wife leave the house (but only on 1 day of the week) everything had to fit in that one day because that was what ‘he thought’ to be reasonable!!
That’s control. He wanted all birds killed with one stone I guess.
So if gals were meeting on a different day her only reason was I can’t leave my house on that day… etc. and she actually thought that was normal and submissive.
Hope that makes sense.
Thank you, Aly, this was helpful. Yes, I think my husband underestimated my strength, too. He did his best to smash, squelch, extinguish it. And I am finding that, in the end, it only made me stronger. I think that is true for every woman here. We are finding our voice in a new and powerful way, because of the injustice we have endured.
Aly,
Thank you for your very kind and understanding response. It is so comforting to know that someone DOES understand the fear and the pain of a destructive, abusive marriage. And yes, I am the same rose who wrote in earlier about losing my home because he didn’t pay the mortgage for over a year. As a result, the children and I were forced to leave and I’m now renting. I cry everyday. Even though we are separated since I started renting on dec 1st (I told him he is not moving into this new place with me..although he tried) and the marriage is emotionally dead, with no hope of husband coming to repentenance…I guess I’m grieving the loss of the marriage, as destructive as it was. I pray everyday for god to speak to his heart and awaken him. In the interim, i don’t know how to behave anymore. I am always the one initiating phone calls, texts and asking to meet for coffee and talk. And when I speak to him, I share my heart with him and explain what changes he needs to make so we can possibly begin moving forward with new healthier habits, as opposed to the old destructive habits that must stop. I am willing to do my part. But I still get the blame shifting, justifying, excusing and rationalizing his behavior and why I don’t see change. It’s me, he says. I don’t let love In and I have a wall up. This is so untrue and unfair. The only “love” this man is looking for is sexual. I told him he has abused me in a sexual way..by forcing me to pay with sexual favors for buying myself something at the store or needing him to do work around the house..if I didn’t pay sexually how he wanted, when he wanted and where he wanted..i was told I have to pay..im his wife. During each sexual act, he used me with no regard for how I felt. It was rough and It hurt me. He wd tell me I’m too sensitive. Even when I said no, I don’t want to do that particular thing..I was forced to. When he was done…it was over. I was left feeling used and violated…like a whore. I’m sorry to use that word, but it best describes how I felt. So often I cried during the act. He knew it was not pleasurable for me. He scolded me, telling me it was my fault I don’t enjoy it..I don’t get into it”. I can’t even go into more detail because it is so embarrassing, humiliating and degrading. I am so ashamed that I allowed him to treat me this way for 20 years. I was stripped of my dignity and respect for myself. I guess it’s my own fault. I allowed it for too long…I thought I was being a submissive wife by having to please my husband, even though I was Dying inside. I’m sorry for rambling. I just can’t give anything physical to him at this time (not even kissing or hugging) as he demands. he has made it clear, i need to compromise and give at least that. After all, I’m still not getting sex, he says. Why can’t he value me as a person and show me respect and give me time to heal? I want to feel valuable and special, even if I’m not affectionate with him. Show me I am more than a warm body. He feels he is more than compromising by putting sex “on hold” for now. I’m sorry. I don’t know why I am tellling you all of this. I guess he’s making me feel it’s still my fault. Cd he be right?
Rose,
You said: ” I am always the one initiating phone calls, texts and asking to meet for coffee and talk. And when I speak to him, I share my heart with him and explain what changes he needs to make so we can possibly begin moving forward with new healthier habits, as opposed to the old destructive habits that must stop. I am willing to do my part.”
And: “I guess I’m grieving the loss of the marriage, as destructive as it was.”
Yes. Grief. Good Grief has (as I am told) stages we go through. I am not a trained counselor in any way, so I tell you this for your consideration. As an observation, it seems like this behavior of yours of (always being the one to reach out to him and giving him more of your energy in defining what he needs to do to repair) may fit in the “bargaining” stage of grief where we will do anything not to have to throw the first shovel of dirt over the casket of our loved one. (in this case, your marriage)
May I suggest that perhaps your husband has already gotten a back hoe and covered it and tamped it down quite securely?
I am saying this to myself also Rose, and I feel my efforts to try to “unbury” or “resurrect” a marriage is not only exhausting in every way, but an impossible task.
When I got tired enough of my efforts to effect change in the marriage (dead marriage), I stopped. When I stopped, I wept. When I wept, I wept some more (still move in and out of this place). When I wept more, I slept by the grave site for as long as I needed. (10 months?) When I felt hungry to live, I stood. I feel I must at times look like I was covered in the grave and barely escaped. (like a zombie of sorts).
Apparently you and I have survived and now is time for us to find water and sustenance for our souls.
Dear Dear Rose,
We cannot resurrect that which is dead. Only God can do this, and He is willing.
May I encourage you to put the shovel down of trying to help your husband fix a marriage he seems to have no intention of fixing. He appears to me to be a grave robber, coming only to your meetings with him for the jewels of your hugs and kisses.
Putting the shovel down of being the one to initiate contact. It is dead Rose. No amount of bargaining or efforting on your part will change it.
It is so very difficult to say these things to you as it feels I am adding salt to your wounds. I am sorry if this is so Rose. I am sorry if it is not time to say these things.
You are greatly loved by your dear sisters here in this place and more importantly by God Himself. You do not grieve alone, but with all of us here as we weap with you and for the loss of your marriage. God weaps with you and is holding you now even though you may not feel or believe it. He promises to care for and to supply for the widows and orphans. I am such a widow.
The acceptance stage of grief is new to me and as I allow the reality of the truth of my dead marriage to exist, it hurts, but in a different way. Not near as painful, desperately confusing, or exhausting to me as the bargaining stage. This is why I am nudging you away from bargaining and into acceptance.
I don’t know if you are ready for this stage yet or if you still have a few more ideas to try in the bargaining.
Just saying, you get to decide how long you bargain for it.
You also said: “I was stripped of my dignity and respect for myself. I guess it’s my own fault. I allowed it for too long…”
I don’t believe it was your fault. He is responsible for this stripping he did of you.
I see such beauty and strength in you now that you will not allowed yourself to be treated in this way. Somewhere inside you are affirming who you KNOW yourself NOT to be (a whore), and I trust you and God can do the work of affirming who you ARE in Christ. I think you have made your own great start by saying “no” to this stripping of your dignity and “yes” to your worth as a woman of God. I rejoice with you in this show of resurrection strength.
Praying God continue to comfort you where you are grieving, guide you where you feel lost, assure you that you are not alone and love you where you are broken.
Lori, this is beautiful and brilliant. You are a remarkably wise woman. 💗
TL,
Must be the Lord then doing His thing of creating beauty from my ashes? Thank you for telling me that this is what He would do and is doing. I am so very grateful for any good that might come of all the brokenness.
Much love to you dear sister.
Dearest Lori,
I have spent my morning reading over your past messages to me. I am in such a deep dark place of absolute despair. Everything you wrote in your messages is true. I know this. You are a wise woman dear Lori. You have learned so much from your experiences with your husband and have come so far. Thank you for sharing your heart and your wisdom with me. I find it very difficult to read your words. The words sting so deeply. I cry so much. I think…no, lord don’t let that be me or my marriage. It can’t be dead.. But Lori, i am not seeing any effort. I can’t remember if I shared with you that I went to his apt “to talk”. I needed to see where this man was spiritually. It was apparent fm his comments that he has absolutely no relationship with God. It was all a farce…professing to be a believer. I explained that God must be at the center of this marriage in order for us to have any chance of healing and restoration. It was clear he was not really believing any of this…as his face showed his disinterest and well as his comment..ok I think we are done here. I sent him many scripture verses, as well as links to Christian preachers he cd listen to on his phone, offered to give him a bible etc. he said thank you for the encouragement. That’s it.
Here’s what I notice is happening:
1. It is easier for h to make an effort with the kids because he doesn’t ask anything of them. He just wants their time. All he has to do is just be nice to them, show them he is interested in them, cook their favorite meals, etc and they will respond favorably. After all..what child doesn’t want a father in their life?
2. H is making this effort with the kids on a consistent basis. Great for the kids..they will take any crumbs of attention they can get from him because they are so starved for it. They’ve been deprived of it for years, so naturally this feels good to them. Dad is finally showing me something…paying attention to me, therefore I will continue is seeing him because I like this new father now
3. H is not making same effort to win his wife’s heart, as he is making to win his children’s heart. Why? Because it requires much more work than it does with the children. He actually has to make changes and behave differently. Wife is holding him accountable. Children are not. They’ll take what they can get. No questions asked. Not so with wife. She has made it clear what she needs from h. H is used to giving what HE wants to give..not what the wife wants him to give. He didn’t like this. These changes are not what he wants. He wants to behave the same way, yet see wife move closer toward him. It’s all her. She’s “got the wall up. She won’t let love in”.
4. H is rejecting Christ. And wife is still trying to minister to him, because she knows that Christ is the only way to a godly marriage. So she’s tries and tries to make h understand this. Problem is…h is not looking for a godly marriage. That is not important to him. But it is crucial to the wife. Now we have a major problem. Two different goals. Where does that leave them?
5. Wife’s deepest desire is to be in relationship with a godly man..that will eventually produce a godly husband and a godly father. This is gods plan. But h is does not appear to be interested in this plan. So what does the wife do now?
She must decide if she wants to stay married under these circumstances..to an ungodly man, giving up her hopes and dreams of a godly marriage that wd have produced a beautiful relationship between husband and wife. without god, this beautiful union cannot exist. It wd be like the rest of the secular world…
I feel as though my strong desire to have God the center of my marriage is costing me my marriage. If I am willing to compromise on that, and take this man for what he is..I can remain married. but because of my “higher standards” of wanting more..that goal of a godly marriage, I may be sacrificing my entire marriage. I will never have that godly marriage, so do I remain married to him and accept what he is willing to give, or leave because I wanted more?? This wanting more is going to lead to me being alone. Do you understand?
Rose,
You are such a precious person and your husband needs help that you can’t specifically give him.
You are not WRONG!
Let’s just make that evident given the clarity of what you have been under.
First, bravery in setting up boundaries for your own place and for him to stay out as you assess your circumstances.
You are doing a healthy thing for yourself and your children at this time;) it’s so hard when their is so much grief.
His behaviors seem to reveal sexual addiction.
You may consider getting into a spouses of sex addicts group so you can find the physical presence you will also need in this journey of growing stronger!
You are not rambling or anything.. by kind and patient with yourself you have been silenced by your husband over and over.
From my experience, my thought would be to not in anyway be the one to reach out to him!
No initation from you at all might help you get off the cycle so you can put some clarity into the situation.
Your heart is so worth hearing and loving, the messages that your husband has sent to you are not true of YOU.
But I know this is a process and you need to be loved, nurtured and cared for.
It sounds like from what you have shared that you have been traumatized by your h and he thinks he is still due some level of affections? No im sorry…
That must be earned from my opinion.
I sense he knows where you are weak and he knows how to use shame against you.
This is not your shame to hold its his.
He is using his wife as an object and that is not ok anywhere in God’s design. And it seems that he has no repentance for this awareness even.
Maybe you can look more into trama bonding …
Did you say you got a counselor too? I’m sorry if that’s a repeat.
Safety for your heart and healing are critical right now and I hope the other gals can reply.
God loves you even if you can’t feel it or even if you don’t believe right now, but He will light a pathway.
I’m praying for your heart and please continue to write your prayers and your experiences as much as you feel, you are not a burden to any of us.
💜💜💜
Aly,
Thank you for your care, love and wisdom I receive even when you are speaking with Rose.
Your support is Invaluable support and so very generous.
Rose, the title of the book by Lundy Bancroft is SHOULD I STAY OR SHOULD I GO. The Chapter 12 is titled – Why Your Growth May Bring More Answers Than His.
He teaches in this chapter, Making Yourself Your Own Priority.
Clarifying your needs opens up possibilities for you to seek what you deserve. As you begin to move the focus of your life toward your own goals and ambitions, your perspective on your partner and on your relationship will shift in important ways. The new rules that arise out of your loving attention to yourself are likely to undermine the selfish, disrespectful, or even violent rules he is used to. SOMETIMES YOU DO NOT NEED TO MAKE A DECISION, because YOU BECOME THE ANSWER.
When you look at what it takes to press and support your partner through his changes (while he fights you all the way) and then contrast that with what it takes to work on your own changes, you can see that working on yourself will reap benefits you can rely on and build upon. You can be confident that the growth you bring about in yourself will last– so you know it’s worth the effort. Knowing what you actually need and have needed all along can be more important to strengthening yourself than knowing why your partner has not given you what you deserve.
Rose, I don’t want to overwhelm you, so I’ll send words a little at a time. This chapter helped me to understand I have value, and I deserve to be treated kindly. I really didn’t know that after 30 years of abusive relationship.
Robin,
Solid help here. “SOMETIMES YOU DO NOT NEED TO MAKE A DECISION, because YOU BECOME THE ANSWER.”
This is something I can believe.
Thank you for your investment here. So appreciated!
Robin,
I reread your entry here and it is amazing!!!!:
“Rose, the title of the book by Lundy Bancroft is SHOULD I STAY OR SHOULD I GO. The Chapter 12 is titled – Why Your Growth May Bring More Answers Than His.
He teaches in this chapter, Making Yourself Your Own Priority.
Clarifying your needs opens up possibilities for you to seek what you deserve. As you begin to move the focus of your life toward your own goals and ambitions, your perspective on your partner and on your relationship will shift in important ways. The new rules that arise out of your loving attention to yourself are likely to undermine the selfish, disrespectful, or even violent rules he is used to. SOMETIMES YOU DO NOT NEED TO MAKE A DECISION, because YOU BECOME THE ANSWER.
When you look at what it takes to press and support your partner through his changes (while he fights you all the way) and then contrast that with what it takes to work on your own changes, you can see that working on yourself will reap benefits you can rely on and build upon.
You can be confident that the growth you bring about in yourself will last– so you know it’s worth the effort. Knowing what you actually need and have needed all along can be more important to strengthening yourself than knowing why your partner has not given you what you deserve.
THANK YOU AGAIN.
I want to share a little of my story after the divorce, that perhaps answers some of the questions that I’ve seen lately. I am not friends with my ex-husband, YET. But more importantly, I do not hate him or feel anger towards him. I feel empathy for his lost ness. I have never ruled out remarriage to him, if he went towards men’s therapy group. But that doesn’t mean I want to remarry him. 30 years is a lot of time in abuse, wounding, trauma, and ugly memories. But I leave this all in Gods Hands. God had a plan to rescue me out of a destructive marriage, and to heal my wounds. I put my trust in Him for all the next steps. This is why I never had a problem with filing for divorce. The marriage covenant was destroyed by abuse. If God wants to raise this couple back up to be together again, only He can do it. I do t have to worry will he, can he, or do I have too. My hope is in Jesus- I heard He does miracles, He certainly performed one for me. Guard your heart above all else. Thank you Jesus.
Dear Rose,
We are all feeling such love for you and holding you and your needs up to our Father in heaven, who hears the cries of the oppressed.
I love what Robin told you in her 2:34 entry. Powerful truth; all of it! This statement is so true, though we have all been “programmed” in a different direction by legalistic theology:
“This is why I never had a problem with filing for divorce. The marriage covenant was destroyed by abuse.”
Praying for the love, mercy, truth, grace, and unconditional love of our God to be poured out on you, and for Him to guide you to loving, supportive people.
Big, bolstering hugs.
Robin,
You said: “I am not friends with my ex-husband, YET. But more importantly, I do not hate him or feel anger towards him. I feel empathy for his lost ness.”
I am beginning to feel this exact same way. I wonder if this is detachment?
Lori, yes I do think it’s detachment. Living separate from him, causes me to not have anger or hatred. I’ve been set free from abuse. Because he isn’t working on his own healing journey, I doubt we’ll befriends anytime soon, but I leave the door open for God to move………..
Lori another excellent book I recommend by Lundy Bancroft – is Daily Wisdom for Why Does He Do That? Small little points given in a short reading for each day. I love this book/ it’s a good reminder of all the things I’ve learned and still get triggered and need to be reminded.
Lori- this book helped me so much before I was ready to separate. This chapter helped me focus on what I could do- instead of waiting for him to do something. I believe this chapter got me moving in walking into my future. I started attending a church an hour away and a counselor 90 minutes away- this chapter showed me how to take control of my life, and grab whatever I needed. Distance away from him was key- and having a no contact rule helped me so much to build my life.
T.L.
I love your strength and I believe I know where that is coming from;)
I love your heart here and your wisdom. You are spiritually ‘integrated’ in many ways and it blesses many who read your posts.
I’m thankful as I read your posts you can see objectively while being intimate with grief and how so many of us here have been impacted, shaped, and some given over…the theme seems to be more male but I’m not trying to gender define…by this ‘continuation’ of the generational origins of sin.
I’m praying today for God’s will for you and we can clearly see the freedom of His love for you and through you!🌷
I will pray also God’s will for your husband regardless the outcome.
Thank you, Aly.
I had a bit of a tough experience yesterday…disappointing, but good. It was a situation I was in, with my husband present, that was a chance to see how much/if there was change in him yet. I watched him handle the situation in this way: holding up his “masks,” clinging to his “role,” maintaining the projected impression that he was in control. I saw him choose pride over humility. And I saw that he still considers himself The Important Person in whatever setting. He had an opportunity to defer to me, to allow me to speak, and he chose to dominate the conversation. (With some friends present.) I am committed to truth and not pretending, so I suddenly stood up as he was speaking, looked at our friends and said, “I’m sorry, but I need to leave now.
I just received it as my Father showing me where my h. heart is. I appreciate the revelation. It’s information I need to make good choices for me. But my spirit still felt grieved. Just thought I’d share about that.
I appreciate this sisterhood so much.❤️
TL
“I just received it as my Father showing me where my h. heart is. I appreciate the revelation. It’s information I need to make good choices for me. But my spirit still felt grieved.”
I bet you did feel grieved. I feel grieved for you also.
Glad you can see through the mask and denial of your person. Glad you have the strength to stand up and walk away.
May I ask (and you certainly don’t have to share more than you want to) what situation you found yourself in where you were physically present with him? Do I remember you saying you are separated from him?
Just trying to understand.
Yes, Lori, I can explain a little more. We have been separated for about 3 months, but I don’t have a “no contact” boundary. However, our communication is limited to practical necessities.
We had some fairly close friends come back to our city a couple days ago from being out of the country who did not know we are living separately. They invited us for coffee. My husband assumed I would not agree to go together. I surprised him by saying that I would meet him there, and explained that I was going because they are close friends that I can be honest and real with.
When they started asking questions, I saw he was not prepared to do the same. He answered their questions in a self-protective way, not once deferring to me. I challenged him on something; he stuck to his guns. And he kept dominating the conversation. Not really in an ugly way, just in an assuming way that his ideas and opinions are the ones that mattered. This showed me that there has been no measurable progress in humility, love, or repentance.
It may have been a mistake to say yes, but I did think it would be an opportunity to see “where he was at.”
TL
Wow, I don’t think I would have had the courage to attend such a meeting, but perhaps it shows how strong you are?
“And he kept dominating the conversation. Not really in an ugly way, just in an assuming way that his ideas and opinions are the ones that mattered. This showed me that there has been no measurable progress in humility, love, or repentance.”
Has he ever dominated the conversation or shown other behaviors in an ugly way in public?
Lori,
Good question/point. Not really. Only at home. It’s subtle in public.
Also, Lori, I was happy to see the strength the Lord has been slowly “kneading” into my soul. It was good too, to see my weakness too: my spirit was so disturbed afterward, and it took me longer than I would have preferred to let it go.
It’s interesting how often during this process it feels like the Holy Spirit is saying, “Watch. Observe. Learn. I’m revealing hearts.”
Can you all relate, too?
TL
Your answer to my question: “Has he ever dominated the conversation or shown other behaviors in an ugly way in public?”
was: “Not really. Only at home. It’s subtle in public.”
I was curious, because that was one of those “crazy making” ways he behaved. He was amazing in public. Very kind, considerate, helpful and seemingly devoted to God. That is what attracted me to h in the first place.
It was when I heard my children say his behavior at home and in public were vastly different that I began to have my experience validated.
My children have eyes to see and ears to hear.
They are such a blessing to me.
I am sorry it effected you for so long afterward TL. Praying the Lord will continue to minister to you in that place and produce more beauty from ashes dear sister.
Dear, dear Lori, I am so touched by your message to Rose. It is so clear that the wisdom you have gained through your trials is worth tons of gold!! What God has done in you, the wisdom He has imparted into you, and your ability and willingness to share are all worth so much. You are ministering to all of us out of your own subjective, personal experience of Christ, as in 2 Cor. 1:3-5. That is what makes this blog so helpful. May the Lord take you on in His life toward the goal He has for you.
JoAnn,
I wish we could meet in person over coffee. I have a feeling we could laugh pretty hard as I saw a glimpse of your dry humor (which I share).
My heart is so very tender and vulnerable right now and I see now that it is in the position of our own weakness that Christ ministers to us ( I love my new found sisters here on this blog) and through us. (How is this possible?)
I always wanted to serve Him, but it was from a position of strength not brokenness.
This is indeed an unfamiliar place to me, and I appreciate your encouragement that God is at work in me and through me.
From the viewpoint of the ash heap, I know Whom my Redeemer is and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.
Thank you my dear sister JoAnn. Your words have lifted my heart today, that somehow out of all the brokenness I see and feel around me, God can do something with it. Amazing Grace.
Lori, I believe that it is really only from a position of brokenness that we can ever minister to others. Watchman Nee says that it is when our “outer man” is broken that the “inner man”, that is the Christ in us, can be released. That’s when the “treasure in earthen vessels” can be seen and appreciated. I often tell the people that I counsel, who have been seriously abused, that someday the Lord will turn their experience into gold. There’s a verse in the OT that talks about the “hidden treasures of darkness.” I looked it up, and here it is. Isaiah 45:3: “And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that you may know that I, the LORD, which call you by your name, am the God of Israel.” Precious words.
JoAnn,
“Isaiah 45:3: “And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that you may know that I, the LORD, which call you by your name, am the God of Israel.” Precious words”
Whoa! Seriously! What an encouraging passage and promise as the waters I find myself in are so so deep. Hidden riches of secret places! Hallelujia!
This is to Ruth. I’m not finding your comments to me from 2 days ago, so I’ll just respond here and hope you find it. Thank you so much for your kind words. I’m somewhat on the shy side, but I finally signed up for the second stage of a counseling course, the first of which I took about 15 years or so ago, from Elijah House ministries. I wasn’t really sure about it, especially the sharing and practicing parts, and their paperwork said to make sure your ‘home group’ surrounds you in prayer now and during the course (Feb. 13 – Feb. 24). We farm near a very small community, and our church is, like 5 members who don’t often show up, so I don’t have much of a ‘support group’. So I thought I’d put it up here and ask my sisters to do this for me. Thanks in advance. I so appreciate this group.
Connie,
I marked it on my calendar.
Blessings.
Hi Connie. I’ll be praying too. We are so happy to support you in this way! Can you let us know when the course starts? And how long it lasts, approximately. And keep us posted!
Go Connie! 👏🏽
Connie;)
I will be praying for you!
(Did I catch that 5 members that don’t often show up, boy can I relate to some of that) Even if you are the only one who shows up, God will have something there to comfort & strengthen you with💖 in His own way and His special presence.
Praying for your heart!
Yes Connie!
I would love to pray for you. It took awhile for me to see this post. Whole parts of Leslie’s blogs weren’t loading for me for a few days. My smartphone also gave me trouble for a few days and by the time I caught up this article had became a GIANT.
I will write on my calendar to pray for you on those days.
T.L., I love what you said here: Your husband has disqualified himself from the privilege of being married to God’s precious daughter. Whether he can or will choose to become qualified is up to him, not you. I sure wish that all Christian pastors/counselors could see it that way. There would be so much less confusion.
Me too, JoAnne. The church needs a revolution/reformation in this area!
Dear Lori, It is so true that each of us is in the process of being transformed into His image, and the mutuality that we enjoy here is so encouraging. I can see from your posts that you have come a long way, but also that you are still working your way through. Good for you!! Even putting your struggles into writing has its benefits. I have really enjoyed the encouragement of the others, too. Everyone is on a different step along the way, and it is encouraging to know that someone else has “been there, done that.”
I really like the “burial” metaphor that you used. True in every aspect.
Hugs to all of you!!!
T.L.
I’m sorry for that experience but love your actions!
God is continuing to strengthen you while you are walking in truth 💜
I am so thankful to have a safe place of such amazing women like you and many others who are facing the pain of these broken covenant marriages and at the same time Being held by God!
T.L., It’s amazing how much clearer our vision can be once we have distanced ourselves from the abuse. I’m proud of you for seeing that and making the choice to walk away. Hear me clapping???
Thanks so much, JoAnne and Aly. I am so blessed and strengthened by your support. 🙂
JoAnn,
Oh, thank you for this: “It’s amazing how much clearer our vision can be once we have distanced ourselves from the abuse.”
Yes yes yes.
Lori and Joann, I so agree!! Distancing is for OUR GOOD. To give us clarity!!!!!
Robin and JoAnn,
It is because of you and the precious women on this blog that I think I am beginning to see better the things I need to see that set me free.
THANK YOU!
And you saw. Praise the Lord!
For me, I knew exactly when to give up hope. The sacrifice to me, was staying with him when things were hopeless because i needed something from him like money and roof over my head. I played the game and suffered until I could get my affairs together and leave.
The reality check from others, counselors, police, friends and pastors who pointed out to me that my husband was an abuser in every aspect in his life. He had decades of treatment and had become “pathological.” I heard affirmation from God, when my abuser/husband chose to be abusive to me immediately following a worship service. Physical violence and threats of it where my final affirmation and I realized that all the years of counseling had not bore any fruit.
Yet, with reference to Lundy Bancroft who teaches us how an abuser thinks and operates and Patrick Doyle who is a Christian who speaks the truth, I got my respect back. I am my own best friend now and live every day with confidence in my decision, I have not wavered once. No more, wishing, hoping and praying. Sometimes God doesn’t heal.
It is not that I don’t think God is capable of healing. The message in my life is loud and clear. My abuser is not being healed any time soon. He reminds delusional and denial. Not my problem. Not my problem. Not my problem.
T.L.
Such bravery in going! And on top of that the behavior of holding your dignity and value to be consistent with truth.
Even if he chooses to stay in denial via pride.. you honored yourself and all of the work that you have been embracing about yourself…and you received that jewel of clarity! 🏃🏽♀️
This is me running out there with you🤗
Ok walking fast I’m not the best runner….
I will continue to pray for him to surrender to a process but I believe it’s a blessing to know or have an idea of what recovery will look like;) and that yours isn’t dependent on it.
Here’s me hugging you!
Thank you so much, Aly! 💗
Aly,
You consistently offer so much warmth and support! I especially love this that you said: “it’s a blessing to know or have an idea of what recovery will look like;) and that yours isn’t dependent on it.”
Sounds so simplistically true, but it is amazingly freeing when these words mean what they say in our lives.
thank you
Lori, T.L , Vanessa too,
I’m wanting to write this morning to be able to share some of what that ‘authentic place or turning point of my h’ looked like in my journey so far.
I’m hesitant because I don’t want to express an arrival attitude in any way but share what I needed desperately ..given recovery boundaries.
And thus realities of what those boundaries produce. He struggled at first with my boundaries as did I~ he preferred the weaker ones, but I emotionally paid the price. The weaker ones had to go away.
We probably have similar infractions that we can relate to that can be general, then there are different levels.. and different requirements so I’m not trying to lump everything across the board here.
When my h eventually decided (given healthy boundaries) to deal with his own deep shame (pre meeting me) and his lack of identity not being anchored in Christ truly he could look at what the collateral damage was.
His posture was this, and I would have accepted nothing Less…,
Given the place where the Lord had brought me.
His posture was one of A THEIF, he could identify what he robbed from me, he could own full responsibility for taking parts of my self worth and dignity even while I was struggling to hold on to them as I should have.
I guess this was some more detail of my story of what recovery (the very beginning of recovery) looked like for me via my h
He knew he needed God and knew he needed to be rebuilt and regardless of my decisions he was going to seek that out for his heart even though he was going to repay full restitution and abundance to what he stolen regardless if their wasn’t a marriage anymore.
I hope this adds any help especially if any of you are experiencing those boundary dynamics.
Much love and support for you all!
AMEN!! I love you all!!
Lori,
Your so kind so thank you.. I really hope to be a healthy encourager~
Your story is SO powerful and indeed I love that your walking your children into wisdom and truth as they learn to evaluate words with action….plus, giving them a brave mom ‘who knows’ and is still discovering her precious jewels she possesses;) 💖💖💖
A lot of my destructive tolerance was rooted in my sibling relationships ~ and all along He was faithful to bring me new sisters in Christ who didn’t need superiority to function🤗 mutually!
My prayers continue for us ‘all here’ as we find our ‘pieces of armor’ designed by Him, necessary for the journey.
💜
Aly,
Your words continue to touch place in my soul that I have not let into the light yet. I suspect this may even happen when you don’t know it.
Specifically this time: “A lot of my destructive tolerance was rooted in my sibling relationships ~ and all along He was faithful to bring me new sisters in Christ who didn’t need superiority to function🤗 mutually!”
Oh my, tender spot for sure. Not sure I am ready to share on this yet, would you mind going first please?
Oh my I’m sorry if I touched on something…
I’m more than happy to share;)
I’ll have to return to this later … though.
On a funny note… I come from an earthly dysfunctional family system… we all get rolls yadda yadda..
I’m the one (pretty much the only one) that believes in professional Christian counseling and plenty of other interventions.., go figure?
How messed up am I to think our family system can’t figure this out (on our own)? And how dare I try to jump from a sinking boat!
I’m trying to be funny somewhat funny here …
I did jump.. in slow motion;) it’s painful.
I’ll return later to give some words to what I experienced and how that set me up well into a role of superior/inferior marriage and actually some friendships..
past friendships now.. blessings from above
I don’t blame them at all.. so I hope it doesn’t come across that way, I think the biggest thing for me is seeing they don’t want a relationship unless it’s like the old one where they cope best! And certainly where I’m not able to exist being an person pursuing authenticicity in all areas of life.
Lori,
Good morning;)
I’m back to go first… about this ‘dysfunctional tolerance’ I grew to repeat in patterns.
I wrote:
“A lot of my destructive tolerance was rooted in my sibling relationships”
For my situation I had to trace back my history back to some false beliefs that were formed. I had parents that brought some comfort and connection (even though they had serious undealt with issues) but I had siblings that connection was well quite dysfunctional, given the state of the family system I can’t expect anything different. I was a child so these relationship patterns formed early on.
I was not believed to have a voice or vote.
I was told by my siblings in order ‘to be with them’ it always cost me..
I started out as a toddler thinking the relationship was dependent on all of my investment!
They might have been siblings, but they were not good friend material … if you know what I mean.
The beliefs and I guess ‘set up’ was this:
They are superior and I was inferior regarding anything.
For them to be wrong about any mistreatment was WAR.
In the dysfunctional system I was always willing to take responsibility for others because they wouldn’t.
This created that top down attitude and expectation. I mean why take responsibility when someone else is willing .. even if I wasn’t willing at first.. they knew how to manipulate me ( I had know idea at the time it was manipulation) because I was told (by mom) we always have to look at the good in the person and forgive regardless if that person is not willing to acknowledge wrong doing. Very little consequences in our family home given for unacceptable treatment between siblings..
I am guilty myself.. so I’m not saying I didn’t have my own place to wrongful actions toward them.., but somehow it seemed my parents were more comfortable following through with me and not so much with them. Somehow the standards for them were not the same for me.
This is still the same today. So I know I’m not in a childhood perception area.
Their relationship availability in childhood and beyond was consistently (inconsistent) … because of the age differences ..,
Their opinion was more important and valueable. Which then later on transfered to their time and ultimately their beliefs.
I really don’t blame them for past behaviors….they themselves were kids.. that were in NEED of some serious ‘ parenting’ and mentoring for how they were dealing with their own identity issues.
Unfortunately even though these children grow up in form they don’t always grow up in maturity and perspectives. These can get so hardwired with entitlement that the relationship dynamic is so sick because they have no coping skills to have anything mutual, all they know is needing to be ‘on their terms’ in order to be in relationship with them.
By the way.. they are all professing Christians.
I had good things I wanted to offer to the relationship and sought to have individual healthy relationships but some people just don’t have the inner places built (such as basic respect for other) and that reveals a lot if there is even a relationship available?
The more I worked on myself and my recovery and especially toward a healthier marriage.. the more animosity and resentment came from my family of origin.., somehow change was not welcomed and it was seen to be more of a threat than of freedom!
(I hope that answers some of what I feel ‘set me up’ for a marriage that was imbalanced and what I contributed & tolerated the treatment, the attitude toward me… to keep it that way for a long time. )
~Feel free to ask me more specific questions im not very good at articulating something that was so hard to unveil and untangle.
Aly,
Thank you for going 1st 🙂
“A lot of my destructive tolerance was rooted in my sibling relationships.”
Such a powerful unveiling. I have been thinking about this all day.
“I had good things I wanted to offer to the relationship and sought to have individual healthy relationships but some people just don’t have the inner places built (such as basic respect for other) and that reveals a lot if there is even a relationship available?”
I am sorry for the pain you must feel that your desire to be close to your siblings has not yet been realized.
I am happy you see that it may not even be possible (as you said so perfectly) due to: “some people just don’t have the inner places built (such as basic respect for other)”
“The more I worked on myself and my recovery and especially toward a healthier marriage.. the more animosity and resentment came from my family of origin.., somehow change was not welcomed and it was seen to be more of a threat than of freedom!”
Yes to all of your sharing. I understand. I wish we could sit together and talk about these dynamics that shaped us from our very early beginnings. It is so painful to watch them carried out in our lives so many years later.
The idea that our tolerance to destructive behavior began so long ago and with the people we should have experienced the opposite with is a very sad dynamic and one that seems so very hard to change.
Your families resistance and resentment of your change must have cause you considerable heartache and stress?
It is a wonder we are able to build those inner places with so much pressure from within and without to stay in the familiar system.
The reference to leaping (in slow motion) from the sinking ship reminds me of my own experience of getting out of my families alcoholism.
I am having coffee with my younger sister in the morning and I weap each time I come home from seeing her as she is marinated in alcohol, yet functions highly in her work with at risk kids in a school. She is ever reaching to help others, but has not helped herself.
She is the sister of mine that has helped me to see my h narcissism and neglect. She helped me to get my feet on solid enough ground to stay the course in the early going, but I am concerned enough about her state of mind to be cautious about the kind of counsel she may give that I see her very infrequently.
Perhaps I will have the courage to share about my relationship with my brother at another time. This is a tough one for me to talk about. Haven’t been able to yet.
Powerful imprints in our early years for sure Aly.
To my dear sister in christ Lori,
As I write this, tears are flowing down my cheeks because you had enough courage and care enough to tell me the truth. While I admit, your response was very very tough to digest, I know in my heart, you speak truth.. not to hurt me, but to free me of this tormented prison I live in. You are showing compassion for my suffering and you understand why I try so hard. I printed out your response because I need to read that over and over and over again, until it sinks in. I am doing exactly as you say, bargaining. I never knew it had a name. The analogy of the burial and the shovel was spot on. Its as if the veil has been lifted and I see so clearly now, what I had been so blind to all these years. I knew something was wrong, but I didnt realize how oppressed I was. I didnt realize how it was affecting my self worth. I am thrilled when someone talks to me…I feel valuable. Im still having a hard time believing so many wonderful ladies here on this site care enough about me to bother responding to me. I didnt expect to hear back from anyone. I was just so desperate one night as I sat home crying and thinking dark thoughts, that I wrote in. The only one who wd really care if I wasnt here, wd be my daughter and my little dog. Thats it. But soon my daughter will be leaving for college and then I’ll have to face my demons. I pray for god to give me strength. Im very scared. Thank you for your words of truth Lori.
Precious and dear Rose,
I am grateful to see you have responded and that you have received help from my sharing. You are in such a vulnerable place right now.
You said: “I am thrilled when someone talks to me…I feel valuable.”
I think you and I need to grow in this understanding and belief that we are of infinite value, we just haven’t been in the right relationships yet to learn this. Apparently we have learned a much different and destructive message about our value. We can learn a new language Rose. We can learn to let ourselves receive the value others want to impart to us here.
Sometimes it felt like I was crazy while the rest of the entire world saw things from the same lens. Seemed the same message of devaluing was at every turn for me and sounds like was for you also. It is not okay with me anymore to allow people to devalue me in a destructive way. Sounds like you may be feeling the same way.
We have gone so long not being seen or heard Rose,( let alone believed,) that it is indeed exhilarating (and a bit overwhelming) to be held and to be of focus. I learned that from our dear sister Aly. She held me in her focus and promised me I mattered. She convinced me it was true. And now I have more dear friends here doing the same.
Tears are now flowing again as I think of their names and how they have convinced me they are on my side and for me and love me enough to tell me the truth. Love me enough to take time to respond to questions and post their wisdom which helps anchor my weary soul.
Never have I felt so much love from so many sisters.
I can’t tell you how much this group of women mean to me. I hope it will help you to know how much you are being held in this group and how much you are loved and prayed for here.
And you said: “But soon my daughter will be leaving for college and then I’ll have to face my demons.”
The timing of your daughter going to college I believe is Gods timing Rose. Think of it! He will have you all to Himself! I think this is a good thing as you learn to lean into Him. Oh, dear Rose, precious precious Rose, He has the best yet to come for you. He does! Lift your face and look Him in the eyes and see how He loves you. He knows you are afraid. He also knows you are strong and honest. Will you let Him have this time with you. Will you let Him have all of you?
As to “facing your demons”, they are not YOURS and you will not be facing them alone. You have a small army of women with you and Jehovah God your provider as well. He has plans for them also dear Rose. 🙂
I pray you feel the love of all here and how we are rooting for you.
hello my new dear friends,
I want to thank you with all my heart for all the love, care, concern and support you have shown me. I feel so unworthy of your time. Your heartfelt responses have touched me so deeply and I look forward to your words of wisdom. Thank you all for taking the time out of your busy life to respond to me and share from your heart. I cry as I write this because I am feeling so responsible for ruining my marriage by being so tough on him to change. Maybe I pushed him away by being so stubborn and insistent that I wanted to see change within him..now he doesnt even call. I called him last Sunday morning “to talk”, which ended badly. I have not reached out to him in any way all week. This has been very difficult for me. And sadly…I havent heard from him..Perhaps Lori was right. I need to stop trying to initiate with him. I need to get into my thick head that I cannot make him see the light. Maybe you can tell me what you think of my idea..I am in the process of writing a letter to my husband and in this letter I am addressing all of the abuse (sexual, emotional and mental) what he did exactly and how it made me feel. I have taken notes from Patrick Doyles videos and Leslies book and incorporated them into my letter, along with scripture. I am very careful not to blame, but to bring what is still in the darkness..into the light. At the end of the letter, I am asking that he consider getting help. (I cannot imagine the anger he will feel after reading that. Him..getting help? Its me who needs the help, so he says) and I am letting him know that I am emailing of copy of the letter to our counselor/pastor (we were were seeing for marriage counseling) so he can be aware of exactly how I was treated in the marriage. My husband is beginning a discipleship group with this counselor and three other men. Perhaps the counselor can see my husbands destructive behaviors and his need for help. Im not sure what I hope to accomplish with this letter. Perhaps for me to finally have a voice to tell my side, what it felt like for me. With a letter, I cant be stifled anymore, like i have been. No one to cut me off, or make fun of me as I tell my story, or make faces as I speak, like im a fool or Ive lost my mind. Maybe my words might finally resonate with either my husband and/or the counselor. Maybe not. Maybe Im still trying too hard to hold onto that shovel that Lori spoke about. Any thoughts Ladies? Am I making a mistake by sending that letter to my husband and counselor?
Our Dear Sister Rose,
Goodness, we are so, so happy you are here with us! You are so dear and tender-hearted, and very precious. We are so honored that our loving Shepherd led you here; that we are counted worthy to love you and support you and encourage you as you learn how strong you are, how intelligent you are, how worthy you are.
You have been lied to and stolen from for a very long time; by the enemy of your soul, by your husband, and apparently by most people in your life. It is going to be such a joy for all of us! We get the privilege of accompanying you on your journey to walk away from the lies, discarding them like an ugly, heavy coat while stepping into the truth of learning who you actually are.
I just had an analogy pop into my head: it’s as if the only mirror in your house/life has been a very distorted one: the reflection showing back to you has been horrid and wrong. But we het to mirror truth back to you! We get to hold up reality and let it seep in and change your view of yourself–the true picture of who you are in and because of Christ.
Thank you for trusting us and allowing us to do for you what has been done for us.
Regarding your letter idea, I am in agreement with what others have said so well already. i like JoAnn’s idea so much of going ahead and writing it FOR YOURSELF. Not for him. And then wait on it. We will all bathe it in prayer with you.
I agree with the consensus that it is highly likely that the letter will not accomplish the change you hope for/wish for in your husband. He has a stubborn heart of unbelief, in spite of his pretense of being a Christian. If you end up giving it to him, I hope that you might be able to do it with this attitude, “Thank you, Father, that you helped me to get all of this truth about what happened to me and my feelings spoken ‘aloud’ onto this paper. Now use it to accomplish your will: I ask you to use it to change my h.’s heart. But if he refuses to let that happen, use it to reveal what is in his heart to help me make wise choices for my life.” And then let your hope be in God alone, and step back and let Him reveal the truth about your husband’s heart and choices.
We love you, Rose. We are all praying for you and rooting for you. You are brave and smart and loving.
Lori,
What a blessing your words are to me. thank you so much for your loving response. You are so kind and compassionate. I am just so overwhelmed that you care for me. Im sorry Im such a burden with my neediness. Its something I am trying to work on. I hate this about myself. I hate my neediness and insecurity. I hate the panic attacks that come over me when Im alone, I hate the anxiety I feel everyday. I hate this new life that I have. At 50 years old, I am single again, starting over. A time when we should be reconnecting with and enjoying our husbands, as our children get older and eventually move on. Going on dates again, having dinner, going to the movies, little weekend getaways…thats how its supposed to be, isnt it? Not like this. Alone at this stage in our lives. I feel ashamed going to social events or church because people see me without my husband. I am embarrased that my marriage failed. Im sorry. I am rambling again.
Rose, I surely sympathize with what you are going through. Writing a letter can be very helpful, to you, especially. After writing it, I would suggest waiting a few days, praying over it, re-reading it, and then, before the Lord, you can decide whether or not to send it. The benefit of writing it is mainly to you. You get it all out on paper, then you don’t have to carry it around with you. I think Lori would probably agree with me that it won’t have much affect on him.
Rose, many of us here have talked about how we pray and have experienced the Lord speaking to us and enlightening us. I don’t recall hearing much from you about your relationship with the Lord. Have you laid all this before Him? Surrendering your while situation to Him, and allowing the Lord to deal with your h and the rest of your family….it is so very freeing. What do you need to hold onto? When we really let go of our loved ones, hand them over to the Lord, such a peace comes in. I have had to offer each of my three children on the altar to the Lord. It was a struggle each time, but the peace that passes understanding was there waiting for me. So very sweet.
One more thought….what is it that you are afraid of? Sometimes if we look into that fear, really look into it, (what’s the worst that can happen?) we realize that the thing we are afraid of is really only a “paper tiger.” You are stronger than you think you are. And it is in our weakness that grace comes and strengthens us.
Rose and JoAnn,
My h had a counselor when we were first separated who asked if I would be willing to write a letter (much like you describe yours to be Rose) to my husband and for the counselor to see. The counselor asked me to share “The Good, The Bad, The Ugly”. Once I started, I couldn’t hardly stop. There was much more to say (after nearly 30 years of marriage), but I hit some of the most painful places of betrayal. I wept as I wrote of the pain I endured. I raged in the letter also.
After submitting this letter to both my h and the counselor via an email document, my husbands counselor asked if I would set up a session with him to visit about the letter, so he could figure out where to start individual counseling with my h. So I scheduled an hour phone session with h counselor.
When the counselor called, he asked me to tell him about the letter. I asked him if he had read it. He said “no, he had been busy and meant to, but hadn’t had a chance to.” I told him my conversation was over with him and he had better not charge myself or my h for an hour session. If he couldn’t bother to read my heart wrenching letter that HE assigned me to write prior to a session with him, I wasn’t going to be devalued anymore by him either.”
The counselor had actually responded to my letter by email prior to the phone conversation by saying something like. “Thank you for your letter, I am sure it was very painful and difficult for you to put down your experience in words. It will be very helpful for your h to hear.”
This was the only reason I even agreed to visit with him on the phone because it appeared as though he had read it and was compassionate as to its content. Not so.
My h also received the letter and I never heard from him at all about it’s content. Nothing.
I share this story with you to say that I DO agree with JoAnn when she says: ” I think Lori would probably agree with me that it won’t have much affect on him.”
Also, I think JoAnn’s suggestion: “After writing it, I would suggest waiting a few days, praying over it, re-reading it, and then, before the Lord, you can decide whether or not to send it. The benefit of writing it is mainly to you. You get it all out on paper, then you don’t have to carry it around with you.” is a great suggestion.
Rose, consider whether you think this may be an attempt to try one last time to make sense to him and others, thus relieving yourself by being able to say you have done everything you can to help save the marriage.
If so, may I say to you your h bears the responsibility for the broken vows and therefore he bears the responsibility for learning how to repair it. The more you work at it, the less he needs to learn to work at it.
It hurt to share my letter and have it be devalued again by a counselor and my h.
What would your purpose for sharing it be Rose?
Rose, I just realized you said you weren’t altogether sure about your purpose for sending the letter.
Even if the counselor reads it and believes you, unless your h heart is willing to work on his destructive behavior, God himself will not force him to.
As to not being interrupted or cut off in mid sentence or eye-rolled at, I think writing a letter would be a kindness you do for your own soul. Complete your sentences, share in rawness, don’t stop writing your letter. You are worth the pen, the ink, the time, the emotional energy it takes to do this.
Maybe this is one of the ways you can love yourself.
Lori,
It is really quite shocking that the counselor did this! It seems quite negligent and unprofessional as well as uncaring. I’m so sorry that this happened to you, but also I love hearing how you handled it!
TL,
“It is really quite shocking that the counselor did this! It seems quite negligent and unprofessional as well as uncaring.”
I thought so too. He also had talked my h into considering an intensive individual weekend that would cost a little over $4,000. I think perhaps I didn’t trust his motives after that.
I think it was Robin who said she had seen around 20 counselors before she found the one she needed. I don’t have much energy to be looking/trying that hard for that kind of support yet.
Do you have an individual counselor?
I would appreciate your thoughts here.
Hi Lori,
Yes, $4,000 for an intensive weekend is outrageous. Many charge around that price for a full week of intensive counseling!
I had a much easier time than Robin finding support. My first counselor (about 3 years ago, for about a year) was a ministry/missions colleague. It was complimentary, so low-risk financially. I was not quite ready for full disclosure (still trying to protect my husband’s reputation) but she was able to quickly see that he had power and control issues and I was weak and enabling. She helped validate things I thought were wrong, but was afraid to do anything about because of bad theology. (wives submit to your husbands…won without a word, etc.) She helped me to grow stronger and suggested I read and learn about co-dependency. Around then i took “a fearless moral inventory” on myself which was scary, but very freeing.
Then we had an opportunity to counsel with a husband/wife team for awhile (till husband got too uncomfortable with the level of honesty I was walking in–I’d reached the “No more pretending stage!) I kept counseling with them. They figured things out very quickly, and were validating, understanding and supportive. And I’ve also had 4 counseling appointments with another counselor when I was in my home state over the summer. He is a professional counselor as a side job to his associate pastor position at a church. He’s been very helpful.
So my experience with Christian counselors has been really good; batting 3 for 3!
Not many pastors understand the dynamics of destructive marriages, so I would be very hesitant and cautious with that. They also have a conflict of interest: they don’t want your marriage to end, so they might encourage you to stick it out in a marriage that is destructive. And I wouldn’t even consider counseling at a church that could be described as “fundamentalistic, or legalistic.” If you usually leave church feeling guilty or like you “are not doing enough for the Lord” I’d say it’s unsafe.
Praying for the Lord to lead each of you to good, supportive counseling in His perfect timing for you. In the meantime, we can support and encourage each other.
Much love.
Dear Rose,
Here I am on a Friday night not doing anything with my h. There are many like me I am sure, whatever their reasons might be. Thing is, I am not being devalued. It is worth it to me.
You said: “A time when we should be reconnecting with and enjoying our husbands, as our children get older and eventually move on. Going on dates again, having dinner, going to the movies, little weekend getaways…thats how its supposed to be, isnt it? Not like this. Alone at this stage in our lives. I feel ashamed going to social events or church because people see me without my husband”
Same. I have not gone to church yet because of my separation. I am starting to see I may be harming myself because of my shame.
Yes, the grief and shame are real and we suffer for the rebellion our husbands have walked in by trashing their promise to love and to cherish. To value and nurture.
Yes, people will judge us and see us as the reason we are separated from our h, but that is because they have not taken the time to understand what brought us to this suffering. Likely, many will not take the time. It is much easier to glance our way and decide to believe the pre-packaged easy answer as to why we are where we are. SHE left HIM. If he wasn’t having an affair, SHE is being disobedient to Gods word.
I do understand how hard it is to be blamed after having endured the pain and trauma of our husbands hatred of us for desiring our most basic needs be seen or met by them. How dare us expect them to keep their promise to us.
Yes. I feel ashamed and embarrassed at this failed marriage, but I am learning how it is not my fault. So the shame and embarrassment are not mine to own. Maybe these are just words in my head for now, but in time, I think I can learn to believe them. Do you think you can?
Our husbands buried our marriages Rose. Mine did from the start. The wedding was a farse. The wedding bed was worse than a farse.
I understand how hard it is to have invested so very much of our lives with the hope and belief that it would pay off in the golden years. The dreams we had are shattered.
This is why it hurts so much to accept the reality of the truth that we cannot embrace a future with our h in this way.
Your words are powerful Rose. If I break them down this way:
I HATE:
my neediness: (what you see as “neediness”, I see as the legitimate need to be seen, and loved. If you were starving, I think you would be extremely needy for food. You have been deprived of the basic need to be valued and loved. No one here hates this about you, and I encourage you to get whatever you need from this group and God.)
insecurity: (It will likely take time to grow into becoming more secure in your value as a person after so much neglect/abuse.)
panic attacks that come over me when Im alone: (I am sorry you suffer so. Bathing you in prayer on this point. I am guessing there will be help in this community for direction in healing for this.)
the anxiety I feel everyday. (I had it too when I first separated and made little to no contact with h. I didn’t think I would survive being separate. I still feel this but not as intensely. I think I can say it gets better.)
I hate this new life that I have. ( I am sorry Rose, I am sorry there is such little left for you to feel hopeful in, but I think it was Robin who said she began to see her single life as a treasure hunt. What does Rose like? What is Rose good at? Perhaps you could see it as something that is being remade by the Lord? Trust Him that it IS GOOD)
You have taken on so very much lately and I would encourage you to breathe, and only think of the next step. Hang in here with us ladies. There is so much help here.
You are valued and cherished and the Lord has much good in mind for you and your future.
Oh Lori. Again, what a lovely thing it is to watch the beauty arising from the ashes of your life. Your wise insight and loving questions and counsel are a gift to us all.
To all of my sisters here: I am amazed at the goodness of God in all of your (our!) lives. Look at Romans 8:28 coming to pass in the rubble of our lives and marriages! Look at the diamonds God has been creating in the pressure of our bad marriages!
I keep thinking of this passage:
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So death works in us, but life in you.
But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, “I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE,” we also believe, therefore we also speak, knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you. For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2Cor:7-18
None of us knows what lies before us. We only know that it will be good…(Because Jer.29:11, Romans 8:28) Our Father wastes nothing, least of all the pain and suffering of His Beloveds. And so we trust, we rise, we stand, we follow.
I am filled with so much love for you all! I am filled with so much gratitude to our Father!
TL,
Thank you for sharing more of your history with regard to your counseling experiences. I am so glad for you that you had 3/3 good experiences. So happy the Lord led you and strengthened you in using His people to help.
“Praying for the Lord to lead each of you to good, supportive counseling in His perfect timing for you. In the meantime, we can support and encourage each other.”
Thank you for your prayers regarding this. I am not very trusting (as you can probably tell) of the experience and am not pressing hard into it yet.
Good to know we can share our stories and what helped us here. It is so very helpful.
Lori,
Yes, this community is amazing! Please pardon me if I came across as pushy about counseling. I think since I “have found my voice” I let it be too loud sometimes, and not gentle enough.
We are all on our own journey’s with the Lord, and He is a good and gentle Shepherd. He’ll lead you to the right pastures in the right timing. xo
TL,
“Please pardon me if I came across as pushy about counseling.”
Not at all TL. I received it as you wanting the best for me and your experience with counseling as being so very helpful to you. (the best for me too?)
Not feeling led that way yet, although I am open to it’s possibility. For now, He is my Wonderful, Counselor.
It’s all good sister.
Dear Lori,
Thank you so much for responding to me. I am so deeply deeply grateful that you take the time to write to me. I actually feel like someone whose feelings matter. You care enough to respond. I know I always this to you…it’s because I feel such love and support from you and it is helping me more than I can express in words. I have read your response so many times. You mention you are home on a fri night..not doing anything with yr h. Thing is- you don’t feel devalued. Right there is a difference between us. See…I do feel devalued by the fact that my h is not reaching out to me in any way. THAT makes me feel devalued. Apparently, I don’t mean very much to him, nor does he miss me. It makes me feel that obviously I am not worth the effort it wd take to try and make the changes i have asked. We put our time and effort into someone that means something to us…right? I am seeing how lopsided it has been..with me always making the attempts. Now that I have stopped, I am noticing..I am standing by myself. Where is my h? Why is he not coming along me, with the same effort? You also write, that is why it hurts so much to accept the reality that we cannot embrace a future w/ our h in this way. Yes Lori..your words stung as they resonated in my heart that my h, a man I have been with since i was 22 yrs old, married to for 20 years and share two children with…will not be a part of my future. Here come the tears again. I always thought somehow, someway, we’ll get through it. But reality is showing me something different and it hurts so deeply. As much as this man hurts me, I cannot envision my future without him. What is wrong with me? I guess I have a long way to go with detaching from him. My entire life was intertwined with his and now I’m on my own. I didn’t want it to be like this Lori. Sometimes I wish I wd just have kept quiet and continued suffering silently. I don’t know which pain is worse.
Rose,
Maybe a reason you and I are connecting so easily is that you and I are very closely in step with regard to where we are at in our journey. If we are measuring by time, I am not that far ahead of you.
You made an honest and important distinction between us: “you mention you are home on a fri night..not doing anything with yr h. Thing is- you don’t feel devalued. Right there is a difference between us. See…I do feel devalued by the fact that my h is not reaching out to me in any way. THAT makes me feel devalued.”
Yes. It had that same effect on me at the beginning, but I don’t have those FEELINGS now”. Feelings change and mine have. Perhaps, if you choose to continue in this separation, yours will too.
You also said: (and my heart breaks over this for you) “Apparently, I don’t mean very much to him, nor does he miss me.”
True. It is very apparent to me that this IS true.
His loss Rose. And a very great loss it is in my opinion. You have such a beautiful and caring heart and you are very intelligent.
And here you said: “It makes me feel that obviously I am not worth the effort it wd take to try and make the changes i have asked.”
Yes. I believe you are right. You are not worth the effort it would take for HIM to keep you.
This is his problem with valuing. Not yours.
That does not mean you are not worth the effort to a person who sees and appreciates your value to make efforts to keep you. And what about you and I Rose? Are we ourselves worth the effort of nurturing, protecting, valuing? Does our value alone come from our h?
If it does, we are both in SERIOUS trouble I think.
Rose, your h appears to want a whore for a companion, (not very valuing of anyone is it?) Pity his next companion if you decide it is not you. Pretty sure he will find someone to take your place. (he has needs you know…hugs and kisses are expected!)
Oh Rose, these are hard truths and I hate being the one to affirm them in your life, but it was a gift to me to be validated in the reality of a h who shares similarities with yours.
We are promised that we can know the truth, and it will set us free. It has for me. It is understandable that we would want NOT to know it, but don’t our hearts, minds and bodies tell us differently?
” I am seeing how lopsided it has been..with me always making the attempts.”
Yes! YOU ARE SEEING. Praise the Lord.
“Now that I have stopped, I am noticing..I am standing by myself. Where is my h? Why is he not coming along me, with the same effort?”
Rose, perhaps because he buried your marriage with a backhoe long ago precious sister and he never intended to grab a shovel and help in healing or restoring. (I feel I am being brutal in honesty here)
Maybe a nicer way to say it is that he doesn’t value it like you or God do. I am so so sorry Rose.
“As much as this man hurts me, I cannot envision my future without him.”
Okay. Can you envision TODAY without him? Not even tomorrow, but just today? Today, Rose. Ask the Lord to hold your hand securely TODAY. Tomorrow is too big to imagine even. Can we set the “future” aside (or in Gods hands) with regard to your h? Can we simply trust that for today, I will be provided for by my Savior Who is the defender and protector of the oppressed? Will we let Him be enough for us today? Will we let Him tend to our injuries and insecurities as only He can do. Will we lean on HIS valuing of us THIS DAY?
And: “Sometimes I wish I wd just have kept quiet and continued suffering silently.
Oh Rose, I understand and this is why we stayed so long in the suffering, but may I say that this place of suffering has no bottom to it and the suffering in this scenario gets worse and worse dear Rose. I have many times wanted to end my suffering by ending my life in this scenario. If it weren’t for my children, I feel fairly certain I may have. You and I were not meant to suffer like this Rose. No.
“I don’t know which pain is worse.”
I remember that feeling not too long ago. (6 months?) And I can tell you that the pain in this scenario is what I would call a “hopeful pain”.
Someone here said that we can get comfortable with our pain in suffering, but it will require us to endure a bit more pain each day if we stay with your first scenario with no hope of it ever going away.
Rose, we have endured pain all of our lives. Surely we can endure this unfamiliar pain of healing. And certainly we can endure it better because we are not alone and are not isolated. We have the comfort of eachother and prayers of our dear sisters who have gone ahead and they are telling us we are on the Way! We have found the way to healing Rose!
Keep asking questions, keep sharing your heartache and fears, and your part (as it is revealed to you) in the madness of the destructive marriage.
Rose, today is all we have and you have what you need to live this day. We are here for you.
Precious sister, hang in there with us.
Good morning Aly,
I received How we Love in the mail on Monday and it is fantastic. I had listened to the podcast on Focus several times but the book is so much better ( the workbook especially). But I’m bowled over that I’m a vacillator. You know, I really can’t stand vacillators, and now I know why.
This had humbled me. It is painful. They said that of all the types it is hardest to get vacillators to see their part….ouch. So much of it makes sense as to why I behave that way and what prevents me from looking inwards. Another thing that really stung is that a vacillator looks to others to take their pain away. You know, before coming to Christ I was in therapy for years. It struck me that maybe that was me paying money to get someone to take my pain away. I’m not even sure that I was there to look in the mirror.
Ladies, please pray for me that I would take responsibility for my part. I think that’s one of the things at the core of my vacillating heart. I take responsibility…no, more accurately, I try to fix things that are not mine ( my h’s wounding) and don’t have the tools to take responsibility for myself and my own feelings, attitudes and behaviour.
That’s probably why “above all else, guard your heart” has been the most important verse to me. It’s about taking responsibility for myself.
I’m sad. I’ve lost a lot of friends because of this way of relating 🙁
Dear Nancy,
I just prayed for you and will continue to. Your honesty is admirable, and I thank you for sharing with us.
This was very interesting and insightful:
“Another thing that really stung is that a vacillator looks to others to take their pain away. You know, before coming to Christ I was in therapy for years. It struck me that maybe that was me paying money to get someone to take my pain away.”
Bringing things out of the shadows and into the light is scary, but it’s always good, because it’s the way to freedom.
One thing I have prayed for is that the Lord will bring you new (or renewed!) friendships to replace the ones you have lost.
Thanks again.
Thank you, T.L. especially for your prayers for renewed and new friendships. I am surrounded by Godly women on a regular basis (I am blessed) but need courage to accept their love.
Oh Nancy!
I wish I could hug you right now;)
Sometimes we can be a in a few attachment areas. Working with a counselor can help a lot with these cycles.
The ‘how we love attachment’ material is great to find where we can relate to our behaviors and responses in relationships.
I hope this helps, but please keep in mind that they are not trying to give people (us) personalities or labels… it’s more about personality injuries than ‘personality’ itself.
And those injuries happen early on given our environment and early bonding. No choice of our own really then… but now we can have more choices:)
I think I might have mentioned but my h was clearly strong avoidant injuries given his family home with some areas of control injuries too.
Those that see themselves as vacillators are the hardest on themselves internally…(per Kay and Milan /writers)
I’m praying for your heart today💗 I love your heart and your willingness! I love how you pray for us and give such care to what others are also facing.
Be kind and gracious to your heart and seeing that some things given a broken world with broken people (myself here included) get established within us… they can set a course..,
but The Lord brings us out and can help us find healthy connection toward Him but also with a (willing spouse) I highlight willingness, and especially with all our relationships and critically our children;)
Sending hugs to you!
Thank you Aly, for the reminder that this is not who I am. It’s not – it’s a deeply engrained pattern that the Lord can uproot.
Who I am, is a daughter of the most High King. Thank You, Lord.
I am hard on myself for sure. I have only done about half the chapter on vacillators so hadn’t gotten to that part yet.
Willingness is key, isn’t it. I thank God that He has continued to pursue me, and shown me this so gently and in His time 🙂
And I thank God for this space and each of you ladies 🙂
Nancy,
To your comment: “Ladies, please pray for me that I would take responsibility for my part. I think that’s one of the things at the core of my vacillating heart. I take responsibility…no, more accurately, I try to fix things that are not mine ( my h’s wounding) and don’t have the tools to take responsibility for myself and my own feelings, attitudes and behaviour.”
Same. Thanks for sharing this so openly. I see my behavior in this also. I bought the book also and have held it at a bit of a distance out of fear, but you have encouraged me to bring it closer.
Dear Nancy,
Can you explain more about a vacillator and where you found the podcast? I wd be interested in listening to it for myself. Your words resonated with me and caused me to think…what am I not seeing that I could have contributed to failure of my marriage. yes..my husband was a real piece of work, and he needs help in many areas. But I realize I also need help…and perhaps the way I responded to him was wrong. Perhaps it was reactive abuse or perhaps I am a vacillator. And so I would like to listen to the podcast and see what I learn about myself. Thank you Nancy for your humility and honesty in looking at yourself. It is not easy to see our own faults. It takes a spiritually mature person to allow the Lord to speak to them in this way. Praying for you.
Hi Rose,
It was a podcast from Focus on the a Family ( best of 2016 series aired at Christmas time). Milan and Kay Yerkovich are a couple that teach on attachment (or as they call it, Love style). Their book is called How we Love but you can also find some material on YouTube ( interviews etc…).
I don’t know where you are in your story, I haven’t been keeping up here, so I invite others to speak into this. Small steps are really important especially at the beginning of your healing journey. The Lord will guide you. Don’t ‘force’ anything. Be gentle with yourself ( I’m speaking to myself here too!).
For me, for example, when I began praying regularly with a friend on the phone, for my husband ( and she for hers), it was because I was recommended “power of a praying wife” from three people over a two week period. I said, “ok, Lord! I hear that you want me to pray for him!”, then I learned that the E of Leslie’s Core was empathy without enabling ( with an associated verse about praying for an enemy) and that was confirmation.
I’m guessing the Lord speaks to us all differently. So I’m not telling you how He might confirm steps to you, just giving you an example. Another thing I “look for” in taking steps is His Peace. Sometimes it’s just a stillness.
Just don’t push yourself is all I’m saying 🙂
God bless you Rose.
Nancy,
What do the other letters in CORE stand for?
Hi Lori,
C- committed to truth & reality ( Psalm 51:6 )
O- Open to the Holy Spirit ( Psalm 27:11)
R- Respect and Responsibility ( Proverbs 4:23 -24)
E- Empathy and compassion without enabling ( Luke 6:27)
If you YouTube Leslie Vernick CORE a short video will come up. I’ve watched it soooo many times 🙂
Thanks for the encouragement above, Lori. So glad we can walk together in this way.
Dear Rose,
I feel a need to chime in on a few things as I’ve been reading your comments and some of the others. I know the feelings you are going through as I have felt the pain of realizing my husband wasn’t willing to look inward and make the changes necessary to save our marriage. Finally, I realized that I had to focus on saving myself and my children. I have three still at home and have been told many times by them to please get divorced as they can’t stand his behavior and constant need for control, mean spiritedness and lack of overall care and consideration. It’s been toxic even after I learned to start setting boundaries. Having a tyrant in the home with all the power is a terrible thing!
A couple of years ago, I felt inspired to return and finish my college degree. It had been over twenty years since I’d been a student but I went back! It was the beginning of my return to a healthy self worth and confidence. Of course, he preferred me to stay home and not be on campus but I felt that I would do better in a classroom setting and not just sitting at a computer. It was the best choice I made during that time of difficulty for me! I have learned so much about myself as I’ve studied and increased in knowledge. At my university there are religion courses too and those have been enlightening and uplifting.
I can’t believe that after all this time I will actually be graduating soon! I don’t know if going back to school or even taking a few classes is something you’ve looked into but I would highly recommend it!
Don’t feel that you have to be alone. You have many options to choose from, whether it’s education, part or full time work, serving in your community and church or just reaching out to your neighbors. There are opportunities out there (others who feel alone too) and you may need to get some help to find them!
I think one of the other ladies pointed out that it can be a time to find out what you do best and what you enjoy! It’s also a time where you will especially turn to your God. Ask Him what it is you need to focus on or spend your time on and he will guide you. It can take time and some searching but you’ll get there. I hope and pray you will find the strength and support you need. It’s there and you are worthy of the blessings waiting for you!
Ginger, CONGRATULATIONS!!!! You will graduate soon, and that is a big accomplishment. I did exactly the same thing: quit college when I got pregnant with our first child, then 25 years and three kids all grown up, I went back to finish my degree and also go to graduate school. I really didn’t think I had it in my, but the Lord was clear that I should do this, and He showed me that I could do more than I ever thought.
Rose, start small: go to your local community college and pick one class that you’d like to do. There are so many options. Another thing could be volunteering for Meals on Wheels. There are a lot of lonely folks out there who would welcome you for a chat. One step at a time…..
Ginger and JoAnn,
I agree with Lori; so inspiring! You have me thinking…
Thank you and congratulations!
Thank you so much JoAnn! I felt the same way at first. Thinking I really couldn’t do it but knowing it was the right thing and at the right time! When it’s what the Lord wants you to do it will work out right? Oh and that is a good suggestion. A class or two to start with is a great beginning!
Ginger,
Thank you for sharing your story. You have inspired me by it.
Let me add my CONGRATULATIONS to you also! Smiling big here for you!
Thanks Lori! I appreciate the kind words!
Nancy, how courageous of you to be willing to look at your history and behavior and realize your part in the problem. This is the first step to change and healing. Take it to the Lord, and give Him permission to do the work in you to change you. He doesn’t ask us to change ourselves, only that we give Him permission to do it in us. May His grace supply you for the road ahead.
So wise JoAnn, “He doesn’t ask us to change ourselves, only that we give Him permission to do it in us.”
Thanks for this 🙂
Dear T.L.,
I cried as I read your response. Again..thinking..omgosh..I am not even in The same league as these wise and very spiritually mature ladies. I still cannot fathom why other sisters in Christ care so much to respond to me. I am so inferior to all of you ladies. I must appear so foolish, in all of my insecurity, neediness and basic sense of being just..well…lost. I am allowing your words to sink into my heart as process everything you graciously took the time to write from your heart. Thank you TL for blessing me with the gift of your time, as well as your wisdom and very sweet, compassionate and caring heart. All of the dear sisters that have responded to me have helped in guiding me into truth, as painful as that may be. Thank you all for “taking me under your wing”. Apart from God, your beautiful nurturing hearts are all I have to help me through this deep dark valley. thank you all for your patience with me, as you all seem to be further along in your walk on this very difficult path. Thank you for sharing your heart and your wisdom to help another who is so lost and struggling to find her way. So much love to you ❤️
Dear Rose,
I think that you overestimate us and underestimate yourself! 🙂
At any rate, we are all on this journey together, and lean always on the Lord and often on one another. Sometimes we might feel strong, but it’s the Lord’s strength that He is working into us as we begin, slowly, to dare to believe what He says, instead of what some others have said to us.
You are loved and valued here. xo
Rose,
Wow, there are so many amazing women sharing and responding with such care for your heart!
You matter, you are worth being seen, heard and loved well!
I so agree with many of their posts back to you and again ‘your bravery’ is going to get stronger everyday;) especially as you begin to discover more and more wonderful things God has placed in you!
Many of us here can relate personally to what you are experiencing in your heart and certain realities that are so painful.
Our coping self will continue to battle some as you choose to take care of yourself, that is common and many of us can give validation and compassion for how traumatizing it can be to our value.
I might of mentioned this given the sexual abuse you have described. (Which by the way is NOT your shame to own in anyway…) only the perpetrators
but I would recommend a COSA group or spouses of sex addicts anonymous ~ somewhere you can be eye to eye with other survivors.
Your pain and what your facing is so valid we hear your heart and want to comfort you.🌹
If I was with you I would hold your hand and listen to your fears and your doubts, they are valid. I would hug and remind you of a different type of love and value (God’s for you)
I would not expect you to believe me, but I would ask you trust God and those around you that you will get through this because of who you ultimately belong to … even though that is hard to imagine right now.
You mentioned insecurity, hear is my take on this and I hope it helps. We are ALL insecure in ways some different than others but to be insecure is such an ok thing and I have never met a person who doesn’t have insecurities. For me to be insecure means I’m human! This doesn’t discredit my identity in Christ but it’s my reality in different places and past experiences. I hope that offers any relief but believe it is part of our broken world system.
My eternal salvation is secure in Christ, but as I’m growing the Lord is gracious with my insecurities and I know He will be with you too!
The enemy wants to ‘shame us’ with insecurity because it can be so powerful but we can rise up and say, not this time!
Our Father will sweep us up, because we can be dependent on Him!
Given your previous comments it seems you are quick to want to look ‘at your part’ of the marriage.
And this is a wonderful trait in a healthy marriage but your husband isn’t a ‘safe person’ based on his behavior to enter in owning your part.
Maybe what you are discovering given the level of the investment in the marriage that you were owning more than your own part?
I know this was true for my marriage!
My heart is heavy for you because I’m praying that you are feeling comfort and validation and not wearing any of you h’s shame/responsibility that clearly is his own to ‘own’
I’m still not clear on how he lost your Family home? You don’t have to share but it could give insight to where your h needs to be beginning his surrender.. not saying he will. But it might give you more claritity as to what is not your responsibility.
Did you say you are going to seek out another counselor?
I hope you can hear in all these words how much we care…. most of us don’t start out in these marriages this way, I know you didn’t vow to this type of a broken covenant with your husband.
The vows are love and and honor, cherish and care for… they are to provide and protect to value and respect… they are legitimate Sacred needs designed for a husband and a wife.
I’m generalizing a bit.. but many husbands have very little willingness to learn let alone apply these behaviors especially if they are used to control one sided relationship.
I think the space and time are essential~ maybe you can look into the trama bonding online and talk with a counselor as well.
The space can give detachment and healthy healing about yourself can start to pour in.
I hope and pray that you can feel proud of your courage to look at what’s taking place!
What you may find is that since your life and especially you worth/value isn’t organized around your h, you can ‘let the shovel down’ as you have been dialoging with Lori.
It takes a lot of support and a lot of patience toward your own heart that you are so worthy of!
You are worthy of God’s love and yes He loves you, He’s not disappointed with you He has open arms for you to comfort you and protect you;)
His Love is Perfect!
“There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because He first loved us.”
1John 4:18-19
My prayer today for you is that you will feel his truth and love and you will feel comforted and held Rose, your worthy of being held!
💜
Beautiful message, Lori, and so true. Friends, I enjoyed this today and want to share it with you all:
We are studying the Lord’s letter to the church in Philadelphia in Revelation 3. He loved that church and did not have any criticism like He did with the other churches. Here is what He said: “…you have a little power and have kept My word and have not denied My name.” Here is the comment on that: “Do not try to be strong. The strong ones may not please the Lord as much as those who do their best with the little power they have. You can never surpass what the Lord gives you. Simply spend what you have received from Him….Even the least among us has received a certain amount of grace from Him.” That has encouraged me so much. Another verse that was included in this passage was Eph. 4:7 “But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of the gift of Christ.” Sometimes we only have enough “little power” to call out to Him, but for Him, it is enough, and He honors it.
Thanks JoAnn. This is encouraging indeed.
Thank you for sharing that JoAnn. It reminds me of the Isaiah passage quoted in Matthew 12:20
A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smouldering wick he will not snuff out…
Jesus is so tender-hearted with the bruised and battered and weak. He is so kind.
JoAnn,
Such a wonderful reminder “The strong ones may not please the Lord as much as those who do their best with the little power they have. You can never surpass what the Lord gives you. Simply spend what you have received from Him”
Thank you!
ON CRY FOR JUSTICE TODAY THEY ARE ANNOUNCING LUNDY BANCROFT WEBINARS AND TOMORROWIS LAST DAY TO REGISTER.
Robin,
“LUNDY BANCROFT WEBINARS AND TOMORROWIS LAST DAY TO REGISTER.”
I went to the website and found that tomorrows last day deadline is for the $10 discount only. ($49 tomorrow, after that $59)
FYI. But I bet your already signed up anyway! 😉
Aly, I am assuming that your counselor helped you to discover the roots of your issues. Not all counselors do that, but I think it is very helpful to see exactly where these things come from and how they are affecting our system of beliefs. Your sharing and your insights are so clear and helpful. Thanks for sharing.
JoAnn,
Thank you for your words. You are such a wonderful gift of wisdom and compassion on here!
Our main counselor… early on (1 or 2 sessions in) knew I had done as much detaching as possible .. so it was ‘back burner’ unless the family system began to seep in and unintentionally sabotage my h’s recovery work!
They had a similar attachment, shame core too so it was difficult to engage even superficially for him as they had a similar hard wire ‘mindset’ ~ simply said the attitude of; me, myself and I. 😉 Very little insight, reflection and compassion ‘for other’.
As my h continued to get healthier he went in to apologize for the abuse and how it impacted them as well..to our family and certain friends. Things spun out and as you can probably guess ‘the system’ had no tolerance regardless if their position ‘contradicted’ their Christian basic beliefs.
It was to them to protect false comfort at all costs!
Very very painful but also very freeing for us to get out with clarity and such compassion from those close to us, & counselors reinforcing truth messages verses adding more trama messages.
Again, thank you JoAnn for your continued care for us walking through painful realities but purposeful victories indeed! 🌈
Dear Lori,
Hello, my dear friend. Thank you for writing me. I have come to look forward to seeing your responses and anticipate your loving support. Thank you for sharing your personal experiences with me and sharing your heart. I am learning so much through you. Everytime you write…yes, I felt that too, it helps me to feel somewhat “ok” that I am not this sad excuse for a woman who cannot hold it together. I am trying as best I can, but sadly…I fail almost every day. My anxiety and lack of discernment for direction in how to proceed, often gets the better of me. I have trouble focusing on daily tasks like food shopping and housework. I often forget to eat and have no desire to cook meals or take my supplements that I need to maintain my colitus. Nothing really seems that important anymore. I know I have to switch gears and start focusing. I just dont know how to motivate myself. After tuning in to Leslie’s webinar the other night on depression, I recognized myself as being depressed. I mentally checked off every behavior she mentioned. I spend most of my days reading. I start with the Bible, and I switch between 5 or 6 books by christian authors to help me understand this new chapter in my life. One of the books I am reading is “Co Dependent No More” because I know that is a huge problem for me. Another huge problem is this deadline I am facing. I feel so disappointed and disgusted with myself that I cant make the decision to seperate or divorce. Its been 4 mths since my court date and the lawyer says I have until the end of February to make a decision either way or the judge will abandon the case. So, I have about three weeks to come to a decision. Oh God….It took me so long just to make the decision to move seperately from him, when I lost my home. He tried many times to convince me it was best not to live apart. I agonized over this decision. I do see now that it was a good decision. I wd have been living in the same hell…just in a different house. Now, I am free..free of all the strife…the looks, the hostility in the home and the constant arguing. Oh, how I do not miss that one bit. I felt like I was going to lose my mind. I was miserable. I was dying inside. I so am glad to be away from unhealthy toxic environment. I enjoyed peace for about the first month I lived seperately from him. That is, until the lawyer called and the pressure was on. I hope and pray everyday that God will reveal what He needs me to see, in order for me to make this huge life altering decision. In my heart, I would like more time during seperation, to get healthier and stronger. But the problem lies with protecting my share of the pension, as I explained. There is a great deal of money at stake. Pls do not misunderstand. The loss of my marriage means much more that any amount of money. But, if I do not act wisely, based on past history, he has the power to jeopardize my financial future. My share of his pension is worth several thousands of dollars each month until I die. It would be foolish and irresponsible of me to jeopardize that. I have to be smart and take care of myself financially. I need to secure my future as best I can. I cannot trust this man to do the honorable thing with the pension. With seperation, he has the power to select an option when he retires that would not guarantee my security with the pension. He can select the option that when he dies, the pension dies with him…and I get nothing. With a divorce decree, he wd be court ordered to select the survivor option, which we secure my share of the pension. But that comes only with a divorce decree..do you see my dilemma? My heart says stay seperated for a year and keep praying for him…that God would bring him to repentenance. During that time, work on getting myself stronger and healthier. BUT…my mind says..dont be foolish, he already demonstrated such gross financial negligence by not paying the mortgage, or any other bills for that matter…and youre going to trust him not to retire in this next year, and if he does, youre going to trust him to do the honorable thing??? So I am left with, divorcing him in order to secure my share of the pension. And thats what Im trying to come to terms with..this is why I cant eat or sleep. I am so tormented as to what to do. Do you know what makes it so confusing? My husband tells me he loves me and does not want a divorce. He wants seperation. But thats all he does…is say those words, without any action to back it up. Well, if he really loved me as he says, wouldnt he show me? wouldnt I see him making an effort? Why am I getting nothing from him? Perhaps hes manipulating me. Im sorry Lori. Im rambling again. Please forgive me. Im just so desperate for help.
Rose, Of course he doesn’t want a divorce, if there is money involved. The longer you stay just separated, the more time he has to figure out how to cheat you out of it. And I know I’m not the only one who knows how the crocodile tears and ‘I love you’s” can flow when there is money involved, or any other thing that is to his advantage. Remember, even after divorce, if he repents, you can always remarry. If. He knows where he has you hooked, and how he can pull your strings. Don’t let him do that. Try saying no to him and see if the I love you still stands from him. I know that sounds harsher than what we have been taught in the past, but it is really the more caring way to go. We’ve all been there, and it takes a long time and a LOT of studying and praying to let go. Let go anyway.
A narcissist can smell from miles away when and where and how an ’empath’ can be reeled in. What our weaknesses are, and they pounce on them. No mercy.
Oh my gosh, Connie! Raw truth and wisdom there!
“A narcissist can smell from miles away when and where and how an ’empath’ can be reeled in.”
So entirely true!
Rose,
“I know I have to switch gears and start focusing. I just dont know how to motivate myself. After tuning in to Leslie’s webinar the other night on depression, I recognized myself as being depressed.”
I would imagine you ARE depressed. I know I have been. Seriously depressed. Depression is a ruthless debilitating experience and from what I know, can be very serious Rose.
May I suggest that you take this new awareness that you are suffering from depression and get some medical help for this condition?
Leslie said in her webinar, that at times medicine is needed for depression. From what you are describing in how your basic life functions are going, perhaps a medical doctor would be able to help you.
I wonder if you could get help for the depression, if other decisions you will need to make might become more clear for you?
Also, maybe it will help you to care enough to take proper care of your nutritional needs and colitis.
And: ” I’m just so desperate for help.”
I hear you Rose. I would be too. I wonder if that help might come in the form of anti-depression medicine to start? Would your daughter be willing to take you for an appointment?
I agree with what others and you have said about divorce ensuring your financial security.
I am also in agreement that divorce doesn’t mean you might not ever re-marry him if he were to change.
Can we focus on your health needs first and get you a bit more stabilized?
I would see this as our first priority.
As to your decision regarding the lawyers question Rose, listen to what YOU have said in your wise and intelligent take care of Rose voice:
“If I do not act wisely, based on past history, he has the power to jeopardize my financial future. My share of his pension is worth several thousands of dollars each month until I die. It would be foolish and irresponsible of me to jeopardize that. I have to be smart and take care of myself financially. I need to secure my future as best I can. I cannot trust this man to do the honorable thing with the pension.”
EVERYONE here seems to agree with you Rose.
Time to care for and about Rose, isn’t it dear sister?
Lori, your insights and counsel for Rose: So right on! The depression needs to be attended to.
Yes! I do believe that we all can see the need for Rose to get out of that black hole of depression; that’s what’s making it so hard to make decisions or to see a way out of her situation.
Dear, dear Rose, if you were giving advice to someone else in this situation, I think you would know exactly what to do. Let your friends here help you. Don’t stay in that dark place. There are many places to get help: a doctor for medication, and counselors for personal help. Go for it!
Dear dear Rose,
How are you doing today?
Thinking and praying for you.
Hi Rose,
I think about you and pray for you every day.
I thought about you today because I was having a difficult day grieving the hope I had for my marriage. I had a very lonely day today and it sort of hit me out of the blue.
Last night I felt on top of the world in freedom and today I have been feeling lonely and sad for the loss of companionship, love and the idea that there will possibly be many more days like this in my future made me think of you and the things you have shared here.
Hoping and praying you are okay today.
Much love to you Rose.
Rose what state are you in?? Is it 50/50 on the divorce split? It was for me, but u are right, you need to divorce to get it!!! The judge will give a court order when the divorce is finalized. Don’t worry so much it eats up good energy!!!!!!We’re praying for you!!!!!
Rose,
I know your letter is directed at Lori and that she will give you beautiful, loving, considerate advice.
But I just wanted to say one thing. You should be thinking of your needs at this point, and that’s all. What is best for you, Rose? This, I believe, is what would please the heart of our Father. Do you know why? Because the man in your life that was supposed to be doing what was best for you all your married life, failed to. So God, your heavenly Father, is stepping in to do what is best for you; to take care of His Beloved. But He needs you to cooperate with Him.
I don’t know what is the best thing for you to do in this situation. But it is sounding like proceeding with the divorce is. Many of us have been taught (by implication) that divorce is the unpardonable sin, almost! Divorce isn’t even irreversible! If a husband finally comes to his senses after a divorce, repents, changes, and decides to try to win his wife’s heart back, a remarriage can occur. And you divorcing your husband is simply him reaping what he has sewn. It is you giving public acknowledgement of his divorced heart.
Just some things to think about and factor into your decision-making. You have 3 weeks. I know the Lord will reveal and you will figure out how to cooperate with what He wants to do for you, how He wants to protect you, His precious, beloved daughter.
Wish I could hug you.
Lori, I havnt signed up yet. It’s on my day I go to counseling……. so thinking about it!! But thanks about headsup on price.
I’ve enjoyed reading many different books about abuse- but he is one of my favorites. Because he works with abusive men, he really understands why they do what they do!!!!
Lori,
Thanks so much for taking the time to ask and read. You words are so kind I thankyou for understanding, I’m still in a lot of grief at times. Many people that have peered into their family systems objectively as possible so understand the pain within.
‘My family of origin would describe them as the most wonderful perfect family’ ~ these ones I think do the most damage… the denial is nauseating and seriously betraying because freedom and relationship is available. That’s the grief for me.
I love them dearly and they are individuals with some good areas and ofcourse negative ones (like us all) but the more time went on the more enmeshment developed.
Yes it was a slow motion course for me .. I tried, and tried. I began to see how enmeshment within was certainly not helping my husband and myself in our journey.
In enmeshed families~ you probably already know this, but their is no ‘individuality really’
~I’m sorry about your sister and what externals you see but I’m thankful that she has been able to be a support to you and address your h neglect and narcissistic wounds.~
I went through many seasons of my marriage confusion thinking my immediate family was safe… only to hear I was the problem from their perspective and how my expectations were just out of the park! (Again we are talking about expectations of respect, kindness, honor, and space for myself to have my own experience of his effect on me!)
Most of my h’s neglect was so behind closed doors they had no idea what I was experiencing but yet they also had (no inner parts built within them) to believe my heart.
Plus, they had all the self protective and rejecting parts like my h to deny the actual dynamics. Talk about crazy making!! 😩
This is why so many in the church system DO need education on this epidemic.
But God is in this and I knew without a doubt I was getting free. Regardless of the emotional injuries in doing so.
You wrote:
“Your families resistance and resentment of your change must have cause you considerable heartache and stress?
Yes and yes..
I detached as slowly I would say over 4-5yrs as possible but eventually it wasn’t enough for them, they certainly don’t want a relationship with me exactly or to get to know who I am.. they want to some what influence/ indoctrinate our children into what they consider ‘loving connection’. They are clueless.. I love them but they are serious hiders of any vulnerablity and that has been deeply ingrained. …
In reality ‘it is not loving’ it is conveniences based on their comfort and their emotional/spiritual development. My mother is still extremely codependent and organized around her h and a couple others in the family.
You wrote:
“It is a wonder we are able to build those inner places with so much pressure from within and without to stay in the familiar system.”
It is amazing.. but thats what HE does;) if we give him permission to equip us.,.God came to me young and even as a young child I knew something wasn’t right, but my voice and my reality didn’t count.
I loved the Lord and felt strong emotions as a child and I felt like I was ripped from another world and plopped into a place that I struggled feeling safe in. ‘This was with me along time’
As God continued to shape my heart I found so much peace and so much truth that I was NOT home! I desired my family to experience Him personally like I was so we could share in that intimacy together. (No inner parts avail)
As I continued treasure hunting with the Lord, He continued to place the confirmations in my heart that I needed for my strength, He was faithful, I was not crazy.., and brought people into my life where I could also exist;) as myself. Not as the false self the family system requires.
For my family, yes alcoholism past generations,. And current…but more importantly their idol was ‘the family system/ideal’ at all costs because both my parents came from very broken homes.
Sorry I wrote so much.. I didn’t intend to.,
Thank you again for asking about that wound and caring;)
I hope I can be an encouragement to you, I know just a silver of what your going through and I wish I could hug you and tell you the strength in Him never fails even when we can’t see our next turn. He holds our hearts faithfully.
💕
I so relate to so much of what you say here, Aly, about finding so much peace in that I was NOT home. And that God was with me too as a little girl. I had such a sensitive heart and knew something was TERRIBLY wrong but NOTHING external confirmed my feelings. The entire community ( including my best friends) thought my family was so amazing. It was so full of denial us kids didn’t even acknowledge it because we had been pitted against one another and were too busy living a ‘survival of the fittest’ existence. My counsellor referred to our family situation as this: not just an elephant in the room that no one talked about, but the rotting, putrefying CORPSE of an elephant that no one talked about. This, strangely, gives me great comfort.
If you google narcissistic family tree in psychology today, there is a very interesting and quick article about the signs of it. The biggest one in mine was ‘the family secret’ in our case the secret was that there was no parent in the home. We were expected to look after mom’s emotions- no room for our needs. This pits the kids against one another. I recently forwarded this article to my siblings. My sister acknowledged it and we were able to connect over it but my brother didn’t even respond. He doesn’t want to know. Both my h’s and my siblings have moved FAR away- as in, if you looked at a map of North America you’d see 7 spots as far as possible from one another. It’s incredible what narcissism can do. STILL people tell me how lovely my mom is- and from a distance, she IS. The problem is the idolizations of the family system, so if you’re not a part of that, you have NO CLUE how annihilating it is.
Talk about crazy making. My parents were best friends with the minister and his wife. We went to church regularly- one of those core church families- and I NEVER saw my parents repent until I was 31. My Dad gave me the gift of seeing him repent over an affair that I had confronted him about. I had never experienced anything like that. He asked God to take my pain away, and He did, He removed the burden, INSTANTLY. I saw a broken man for the first time in my life. It would be 10 years before I came to Christ and understood what happened there – GOD SHOWED UP! In a tangible way. That moment was CRUCIAL for me. My Dad died less than 6 months after that but before he went I was able to write a letter and thank him. He read it in the hospital and cried. I thank God for that!
At Christmas this year, I told a sister about that story and she asked if my brother knew that story. I told her no. She felt that it would be important for a son to know about it. So I wrote my brother a letter telling him. It would’ve arrived to him right around the anniversary of my Dad’s death ( Jan. 31). I PRAY that The Lord uses it to cut through the denial. My brother and his wife are excercise/ fitness addicts.
Oh boy, I’m rambling. That’s because my daughter just had her grandma ( my mom) over to ask questions for a school project, on her childhood. My mom was here for two hours and I’ve been triggered. Breathing…..breathing….in, out, in, out..,. It’s kinda hilarious how one sweet little old lady has such an effect. By the way, the only reason we did this ( had my mom over) was because I thought it fit into my third priority which was to Glorify God in our little family. I had asked our daughter what kind of support she needed for this project ( knowing my mom can be taxing on her too), she asked to have her over for the interview. Hmmmm sounds like I’m justifying my decision….not sure if I guarded my heart sufficiently…
Next week our nephew ( on my h’s side) graduates from basic training. He invited us to his grad. We will take our girls out of school and we will go. But this will mean some family of origin interaction. My h and I are being EXTREMELY intentional about this. We’ll meet his sister ( graduate’s mom) and my h’s mom ( graduate’s grandma) at the reception and visit there. It’ll be short and hopefully we’ll get out of there in tact.
I thank God that we get to practice new family dynamics in small bite size pieces. Another nephew is getting married in about a year ( date not set) we’ll hopefully be much stronger by then, but will also really set boundaries too ( not stay with family, keep interactions to an hour or so, lots of retreating to our hotel room).
Nancy,
I can relate so well to what you said: “I had such a sensitive heart and knew something was TERRIBLY wrong but NOTHING external confirmed my feelings. The entire community ( including my best friends) thought my family was so amazing.”
Many people in my hometown still believe our family was the best.
And: “My counsellor referred to our family situation as this: not just an elephant in the room that no one talked about, but the rotting, putrefying CORPSE of an elephant that no one talked about. This, strangely, gives me great comfort.”
I bet it does! Finally validation! Especially given your words: ” I knew something was TERRIBLY wrong but NOTHING external confirmed my feelings.”
So happy for you that you had your healing time with your father. 🙂 That must have meant so much to you!
Sounds like you and your h are working together to keep your family in a healthy way during family interaction. Too bad we have to beef up to be ready for family. 🙁
You are not alone Nancy. I think there are many many people in this same setting.
Funny how you mentioned the narcissistic family and the secrets. Lots there, if only we are courageous enough to let the truth be known.
Thanks, Lori. It is too bad to have to ‘beef up’ ( I like this!) before interacting with family. But God must have a purpose in this preparation and battle we fight!
My big wish is that I can just be safe all the time, without having to work for it. Just be protected. But The Lord is showing me that that is not living in reality. We are not in heaven yet! This is a difficult world and I need to learn how to heal and allow Him to do battle for me ( thanks to T.L.for this understanding).
Spiritual warfare. That is what will allow me to live in reality ( I think so anyways…I’m always looking for THE answer, or THE formula!)
As far as the truth of family secrets, Lori. Be gentle with yourself. Patrick Doyle talks about how a counsellor should never go ‘rooting around’ for injuries. The Lord brings stuff to the surface for healing in His time. He’ll make it clear to you when to ‘go there’.
Aly,
“‘My family of origin would describe them as the most wonderful perfect family’ ~ these ones I think do the most damage… the denial is nauseating and seriously betraying because freedom and relationship is available. That’s the grief for me.”
I am sorry Aly. What a deep deep grief it is. I know this grief also.
“I’m sorry about your sister and what externals you see but I’m thankful that she has been able to be a support to you and address your h neglect and narcissistic wounds”
Thank you Aly, coffee was wonderful today with her. She is truly my dearest companion in life. She and I see the truth of our family of origin and her dependence on alcohol is truly a heart break to me. I know the bondage of it. Also, thank you for validating that my wounds are from a n husband. My tolerance for this abuse was developed in my childhood with my narcissistic father.
Aly, I get the feeling from your writings that you and I grew up in such a similar home. I also get the feeling that you are like my younger sister to me. (although I don’t know your age) It is a blessing to me that you are so committed to truth and reality. So grateful you hung in through the difficulties that you might learn a new way of living and developing the capacity for true relationship out of respect and love for each other. Bravo sister! In my experience, you (and the sisters here) are RARE.
” my voice and my reality didn’t count.”
Yes. I am sorry Aly. I am glad you have learned they do.
“As God continued to shape my heart I found so much peace and so much truth that I was NOT home! I desired my family to experience Him personally like I was so we could share in that intimacy together. (No inner parts avail)
As I continued treasure hunting with the Lord, He continued to place the confirmations in my heart that I needed for my strength, He was faithful, I was not crazy.., and brought people into my life where I could also exist;) as myself. Not as the false self the family system requires.”
WOW. Yes…Yes…Yes… So well said! “the false self the family system requires.” Just WOW!
I respect and admire your strength, wisdom and generous contribution to the body of Christ.
I imagine He is well pleased with you Aly.
Blessings and Love
Aly, Nancy, Lori,
I was not able to get back on the computer until now, so am just going to try to catch up. I wanted to tell the three of you that I read with interest your family of origin stories. Mostly I am relating with it as it compares to the family my dear children grew up in: Nancy, I read the Narcissistic Family article could see so much that applied to our family. My husband always tried to instill in our kids that our family was better than any family around, that you can only trust your family, others will hurt you. We were enmeshed, there was triangulation, my husband was the narcissist hub around which we all revolved. It was him against us, always, as I would side with my children and try to protect them from his emotional abuse, like a mama-bear. But I felt so powerless.
Now that I have come “out of the fog,” I have gone to each of my grown children, asking their forgiveness that it took me so long to “wake up.” We had long conversations in which I validated their pain. One of my sons was “the scapegoat.” He was always a tester of boundaries and limits, and my husband couldn’t stand that. So he endured a lot of verbal abuse, and would be grounded and treated with contempt; just total unfairness. I had heard this son say on more than one occasion, “I was awful. I got spanked the most, yelled at the most, but I deserved it.” Last summer, I had my talk with him. I looked him in the eye and told him, “I’ve heard you say that you deserved it. Look at me, son. You did not deserve that. What you deserved were two mature, self-controlled parents who disciplined you in love. That’s what you deserved, and too often didn’t get. It was wrong. Please forgive me for my complicity. I am so sorry.” I also explained to him that I thought that his anger issues I had seen in him were from stuffing his anger at the abuse. I encouraged him to get some counseling, which he is pursuing slowly.
Having these sorts of conversations with my kids has been so healing for them and has brought restoration in our relationships. I’m so grateful for that.
I am praying that one day their father will come to them in a similar manner. Not holding my breath, but I do hope so.
Oh T.L. my heart is so grateful for what you did for your children.
What you did for your children is what my father did for me: demonstrated what taking responsibility and repentance looks like. You gave them an invaluable gift, T.L. It’s a new template for what Love is. God will use that template T.L. He certainly did for me. It was a roadmap, straight into His arms. They will always have that roadmap now – trust that it’s in there.
I’m so happy your son is receiving help, but most important he and his siblings have a safe place in you. I am crying because my deepest desire is to have my mother take responsibility. How do you forgive someone who won’t own the damage? God will show me how. This is why the Payrick Doyle videos are so key. Forgiveness does not equal trusting or reconciliation. So. Critical. When dealing with a narcissist.
God knows no bounds when we let Him in and give Him permission, He can move mountains. I didn’t know it then, but that moment – when my father prayed over me, from a place of deep humility- was the beginning of my journey with The Lord.
I’m just so happy for them.
Dear Nancy,
Thank you for your gracious words…you made me cry. If I can do anything at all to bless my children, to help bring healing and a new legacy to them and to their children and future generations, then my heart is happy.
And for you, my dear sister, and others who are lacking a loving mother: I pray that your mama’s will turn to the light and the love of Christ, and if not, I wish I could fill that gap, and if not, that our gracious Father would bring older women to love you as a mother should.
At any rate: there is nothing in this life that is ever truly a loss, for a Christian. Of this, I am utterly convinced. There will ultimately be a Great Restoration of all we thought lost: every loss will be gain in that Great Day. It is just who He is. It is His character.
Please receive my motherly embrace. xo
Lori, a thought I had for you last night I couldn’t let go– you might the Lord if Leslies book on Love someone mentioned yesterday — if this is the right time for you to go towards that. When we are separated our first goal will be taking care of me. Learning what you need and what to embrace. Just a thought I had…… I wondered if it’s the right season for that book.
Robin,
I may have missed it, but did someone suggest a book of Leslies for me to read? Not sure I understand?
Thanks for your thoughts here though.
Hello My Sisters,
So today, I had another difficult encounter with h. You may remember that he has “taken a sabbatical/leave of absence” from ministry to “work on his marriage and his personal issues that impact his relationships.” He stepped out of most of his responsibilities 2 months ago.
One of the elders wanted us to come for a meal and to discuss where things were at, what progress was being made, etc.
It was frustrating to see both of us describing the situation so differently. I can see that his perspective makes perfect sense to him. He HAS repented of past bad behavior, he HAS apologized, he is getting counseling, he’s trying his best. But I continue to want him out of the house, etc. He really seems to believe that our main issue is my inability to forgive and extend grace.
I made my points about true repentance, heart change, inner attitudes that I know are still there, etc.
It was exhausting. It feels like I a just going through the motions that have to be gone through to play it all out to the seemingly inevitable end.
I don’t even know why I’m writing right now. Just to connect and feel supported, I guess.
Hello My Sisters,
So today, I had another difficult encounter with h. You may remember that he has “taken a sabbatical/leave of absence” from ministry to “work on his marriage and his personal issues that impact his relationships.” He stepped out of most of his responsibilities 2 months ago.
One of the elders wanted us to come for a meal and to discuss where things were at, what progress was being made, etc.
It was frustrating to see both of us describing the situation so differently. I can see that his perspective makes perfect sense to him. He HAS repented of past bad behavior, he HAS apologized, he is getting counseling, he’s trying his best. But I continue to want him out of the house, etc. He really seems to believe that our main issue is my inability to forgive and extend grace.
I made my points about true repentance, heart change, inner attitudes that I know are still there, etc.
It was exhausting. It feels like I am just going through the motions that have to be gone through to play it all out to the seemingly inevitable end.
I don’t even know why I’m writing right now. Just to connect and feel supported, I guess.
Oops. Sorry for accidentally posting twice.
TL, you are supported and loved. My suggestion would be why are you going together? That seems like a sure bet for disaster. I say that well experienced with those kind of sessions, that never helped and usually cost me big time in emotional distress. The problem with so many church people is if a husband says he is doing a, b. c they Pastor or elder immediately think the wife has the problem. Sorry this is not encouraging. I would ask the Lord if dual sessions are helpful.
Sorry my spelling was in error. I’m praying for wisdom for you. I know this is very hard!!
TL,
When I read: “One of the elders wanted us to come for a meal and to discuss where things were at, what progress was being made, etc.” I literally felt a knot in my stomach. I cannot imagine that being a possibility at this point given the difficulty of the last “together in public” experience you had where he showed his position hasn’t change. (You are wrong, he is right.)
Then I read what Robin said: “My suggestion would be why are you going together? That seems like a sure bet for disaster.”
I am happy she said that as it doesn’t seem like it is time yet for a couples “check-in”. I can only imagine if he is like my h, that my presence alone would be threatening to him and would not be condusive to him feeling safe to be real.
I am thankful you received Robins input and gaining help to protect and guard your heart: ” I will protect myself in the future from emotional fallout by requiring seperate check-ins.”
Let the elders see the chasm between the two stories. I would think it would cause discouragement to see h still in denial and blame mode. It most certainly would wound my heart all over again. Perhaps one day if your (and my) h are willing to let down the mask and pretense, and as Aly says: gains a “posture of repentance” and is willing to allow himself “to enter the grief of that” and deal with the ‘mindset issue’ we will be more certain we are safer to enter a couples times.
So thankful for the feedback from Robin and Aly. Aren’t we blessed to have these sisters in our corners? Praise God!
Sorry this was a hurtful time for you. 🙁
Robin,
Thank you for your empathy. It’s such a blessing. I agree that I need to ask for/require separate check-ins.
I loved what you wrote here:
“Let the elders see the chasm between the two stories. I would think it would cause discouragement to see h still in denial and blame mode. It most certainly would wound my heart all over again. Perhaps one day if your (and my) h are willing to let down the mask and pretense, and as Aly says: gains a “posture of repentance” and is willing to allow himself “to enter the grief of that” and deal with the ‘mindset issue’ we will be more certain we are safer to enter a couples times.”
And yes, so thankful to Aly for giving language to what my heart is feeling it needs!
“So thankful for the feedback from Robin and Aly. Aren’t we blessed to have these sisters in our corners? Praise God!”
Yes! I feel so deeply enriched by all of you! xo
Lori,
Oh yikes! I addressed my message below to Robin, but it was meant for you! Thank you! xo
Thank you Robin. In our case, I think it’s clear to the church leaders that h. is the one with the main issues causing the problem. His control issues have impacted them as well, so my story was easy to believe.
But when we are both together like that talking, it is frustratingly futile.
So good advice Robin. I will protect myself in the future from emotional fallout by requiring desperate check-ins.
Thank you!
Oops, make that “separate” check-ins, not “desperate.”
Also, though they get my basic story, I do see what you’re saying, when he says he’s doing a.b.c., they do seem to buy in somewhat.
Thanks again, Robin!
I’m glad to hear you have Church support and belief in your words.
Do they support a separation would be helpful until the attitudes of his heart changes??
Well, I separated without asking their opinion. He tried to hide the fact from them, and pretend we were stressed, but living together. But I made sure they knew, and explained why: he is unhealthy and oppressive to live with and I am not going to live with him until and unless he changes.
I haven’t been challenged on that. They seem to understand.
T.L.
I support you and totally get where the exhaustion is! You are validated even if the one who refuses to take full accountability and the consequences that (that) entails.
Again, maybe I’m wrong with my own experience here.. but for my situation it was the ‘mindset’ that a person like you h….Has functioned in and self protected most of his lifetime… not saying I’m true but at least that is what I have found to be common.
Not sure if a post of mine was posted??? but it was about the posture of repentance .. I gave a ‘thief example’ and my husbands ability to see all what he stole from me personally and the collateral damage done.. that wasn’t going to get rebuilt over a few weeks and over saying sorry technically …
he had to enter the grief of that and that took dealing with the ‘mindset issue’. Not sure if that helps.., but I do get how lonely one can feel in these places.
I’m hugging you and praying for you💟
Yes, Aly! I’m going to read that one over again, because it was so helpful and applicable to my situation. I’m sorry if I never responded.
Aly, your posts are always so encouraging. I can tell that you have worked long and hard on healing and now that experience is helping so many others. May the Lord’s grace continue to supply you.
Aly,
Uggh! I wish we had a search button as I am finding it hard to re-find that one. I should have cut and pasted the ones that spoke to me deeply as some of you other wise women have done. I’ll keep looking, but if anyone did cut and paste and save it, please let me know. This one:
“it was about the posture of repentance .. I gave a ‘thief example’ and my husbands ability to see all what he stole from me personally and the collateral damage done.. that wasn’t going to get rebuilt over a few weeks and over saying sorry technically …
he had to enter the grief of that and that took dealing with the ‘mindset issue’. Not sure if that helps.., but I do get how lonely one can feel in these places.”
Oh, hehe. Guess what? I DID cut and paste and save that one! Thank you, Aly, and I hope none of you are looking…
Wow, you go girl. TL Jesus must be so proud of your ‘Standing up’ against sin. !!!!!!!!!
Thank you Robin. 🙂
I think deep inside I’m wrestling again with the feeling that I need to explain to him where I am coming from, what he’s not seeing and understanding. I start to imagine writing it all in a long email: his dysfunction, hoe it has impacted me, that I need to see a willingness to accept consequences and make amends, no matter how long it takes, etc.
And then I think: it’s too exhausting and won’t work anyway. I’ve already banged my head against that wall.
Such a hard process: to relinquish the wish that we can change them. It’s like a tug of war. You feel strong for awhile, and then you weaken again.
TL, oh man do I hear you. I failed a trillion times in the NOT letting go. It’s hard to not take any responsibility in doing more. I think it’s in a woman’s nature to do so.
I’m sorry, but I just tried to remember this is an important part of the process, for my healing.
TL,
“Such a hard process: to relinquish the wish that we can change them. It’s like a tug of war. You feel strong for awhile, and then you weaken again.”
Ohhhhhhhh mannnnnn…..this statement is haunting. I don’t want to go back there!!!!!!!!!
“it’s too exhausting and won’t work anyway. I’ve already banged my head against that wall.”
I can’t tell you how many times my h has told me that he can’t work on change if I don’t tell him what needs worked on. He does this with our children too.
Thing is. I TOLD HIM FOR NEARLY 30 years. I MEAN IN DETAIL!
I can’t anymore. I am waaayyyy tooooo tired for that.
It does haunt me though, that perhaps my unwillingness to couple counsel at this time is the cause of our separation. Just gotta go back to sane thinking and remind myself…been there….done that….but I do find myself in the mode of being caught up in the confusion again.
The longer I have been separate from him, the clearer my thinking is becoming. I want to keep it that way.
Yes, Lori! That last statement was right on. When someone wants a “to do list” of how to change, that means that all they are looking for is a behavior handbook, without making a real heart change. then, after trying to change behavior and realizing it’s too hard, they revert back to their old ways. Your h is just not wanting to do the work. I am so encouraged that you are working on healing your own heart, and in the process are helping others to heal via this blog.
JoAnn,
“When someone wants a “to do list” of how to change, that means that all they are looking for is a behavior handbook, without making a real heart change. then, after trying to change behavior and realizing it’s too hard, they revert back to their old ways.”
Do you have any idea how helpful you were to me by saying this? Just feels like a fresh foundation was just poured. Gonna get to build on this for sure.
Thank you!!!
T.L.
No worries at all.. not sure if it’s helpful given the different dynamics but some of us seem to have very similar patterns with dealing with h’s that struggle in (being a team in a marriage)
My heart is heavy with you as this issue can be simply one of ‘character and maturity’
What I mean by that is how you would define opening trust up with repentance, accountability, heart change, consistent contrition and so on…
Your h would have a complete different linear definition. Check box should we say?
Just a possibility not saying I’m correct.
The biggest issue is as you stated does he have any authentic contrition ‘for the impact’ this has had on you for such a long time? This is a serious trust issue that he should be able to resonate to given the length of the separation and the interventions he has in place. Does he know how to describe the inner issues in him that have driven his destructive outward behavior?
Just a guess..I’m assuming true empathy is in short supply by him. My h had to learn empathy from the ground up ~
Sending hugs your way… keep your strength and know your headed toward a better path regardless of the outcome with him;)
Aly, you are right on all counts, I think. He shows zero signs that he understands the impact on me, just the basic attitude of, “I have changed and I am changing. Poor me; it’s hard to be out of the hose and be made to feel like an outcast. Anyone would have a hard time with that. You are sending me mixed messages. You want me to stay away yet you want me to win your heart back.”
He definitely does not have enough real accountability yet. Only he and the counselor are privy to what is happening there, though I’m supposed to be asked for feedback periodically. Only recently have the elders bothered to ask for my perspective, and now they are scrambling to figure out how to manage the situation which is very different than he led them to believe.
He does not yet know how rob describe the inner attitudes driving the outer behavior. He focused today on changes in his outer behavior. When I said he’s “gone underground” but the heart attitudes of entitlement, superiority, etc. are still there, he said, “Oh, well now you’re judging me.” 😑
Aly,
“The biggest issue is as you stated does he have any authentic contrition ‘for the impact’ this has had on you for such a long time? This is a serious trust issue that he should be able to resonate to given the length of the separation and the interventions he has in place. Does he know how to describe the inner issues in him that have driven his destructive outward behavior? ”
Such insightful questions. Not even close to exploring this, but it helps me realize how far from any kind of “together again” possibility this is for my h and I.
More reality. Thank you. A copy and paste for sure.
T.L.
Yes so true, when ‘they’ are faced with the inconsistencies is it so the blanket thread.. ‘I feel so judged’..
Again we are back to ‘how you feel’ …how convenient.
~These are the core inner shame undealt with areas~ Just my opinion..
Here’s a tedtalk I thought was pretty relevant to what is underground culturally speaking..,
They are exposing;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTvSfeCRxe8&sns=em
Walking with you sister in Christ;) 🤗
Aly,
Thank you for exposing what I know in my spirit but haven’t been able to find words for yet:
“when ‘they’ are faced with the inconsistencies is it so the blanket thread.. ‘I feel so judged’..
Again we are back to ‘how you feel’ …how convenient.”
Nauseating how they can organize everything around themselves. Impossible to work with.
Dear Sisters: My update:
I watched the Ted talk Aly. I had seen it before, quite awhile back and was so impressed that some men are standing up and speaking out.
So yesterday in the meeting with the elder and his wife, lots of things were said. One thing I told my husband was that years back I told him he had stomped all over and crushed my heart. He had lost it and that he needed to win my heart back. He basically ignored/didn’t hear me. I also pointed out that after saying that to him, he never even took me to dinner, on a date, nothing.
So today, I get a couple texts. One ends with “I love you.” One asks me out to dinner tomorrow night.
I don’t think I will go, but I thought about it…about taking the occasion to tell him how very high the bar is…to talk about “a posture of repentance,” humility and contrition, rebuilding trust…that this is a very long haul with a lot of work.
Can I get some advice and feedback? Keep in mind he is working with a counselor who specializes in these very distinctions with men who have “power and control issues. “
Oh my goodness T.L. I don’t think you should go. Can you get access to your h’s counsellor to find out how he is doing with his ‘power and control issues”? Will your h sign a release to allow you that access?
If you go, you will step right into the role I call ‘educating him’. One of the boundaries I have and say is, “it is not my responsibility to educate you on how to be a husband”. It IS my responsibility to state my needs, but you are not at that point as you are separated.
I always thought, “if only I could articulate it better, or speak his language…THEN he might get it.” This is wrong thinking. We are not our spouses mentor, or their Holy Spirit. Patrick Doyle says we have no business opening our heart to someone who is untrustworthy. You may go in wanting to ‘educate’ but really T.L. don’t you really just need to be heard? Take this grief to our Lord and Healer. I grieve with you 🙁
If he hasn’t repented then he isn’t capable of hearing you. He isn’t capable of getting past himself. John Townsend says that a person is trustworthy to the extent they care about their effect on you. If he has not been convicted then he has no ability to put himself aside to even listen to what you say.
Be careful sister.
Oh Nancy, how I love your heart to protect! Thank you!
As I said in my response to Aly, I got an email from the counselor today inviting my input…which I will give!
You make some excellent points. Thank you for sharing your heart so openly. I appreciate it so very much. You have given me much to think about. I love your Patrick Doyle point and your Townsend point.
As I said in Aly’s or Lori’s: Gosh, I love you ladies! I am so blessed and enriched by you. Thank you! xoxo
I’m sure u saw it Lori. I think u said u owned it and didn’t have courage yet to read it.
Robin,
How we Love? I don’t think Leslie authored that book. Is that the one?
Yes – I thought it was Leslie,s my error. Sorry.
Robin,
Gotcha.
Can you tell me more about what you were thinking?
Certainly don’t have to, just wondering about more details. ( I annoy people sometimes with my desire for details. It’s just that it helps me process information).
Lori, u could never annoy me. My counselor tells me all the time I’m a real student and I carry with me one question after another. I love to learn…….
My point was when we feel it necessary to separate – perhaps our focus needs to be caring for us . How to stop taking responsibility for spouse and letting God speak to him. A book on Love sounds to me like another thing I need to fix.
When it’s time to Rest and Relax and figure out how God is leading me. ??????
Robin,
I see now. Thank you for the explanation. I am tired of fixing, (indeed I have repented of that) but do want to work on me.
Thank you for sharing your sense of a “red light” here.
Nice to have an experience trail guide saying “watch your footing here”. 🙂
Blessings Robin
This is wise counsel, Robin. As I get into the book on love I feel STRONGLY the temptation to fix. It is ONLY because I have found a safe counsellor to oversee this work. One. Step. At. A. Time. And most importantly, that each step is guided by the Holy Spirit.
We are each at different places on an individual journey. So important to stay connected with our Wonderful Counsellor and Advocate.
If u ladies doubt the benefit or lack of benefit in couples counseling– ask Leslie to respond, I’ve heard her negate it until there is a heart change.
My counselor was very strong in this. My husband called her office to make a group appt. my counselor said how would u like me to respond? I said no way. She said good as that’s what she was going to do. She gave him a name of a counselor and said down the road we’ll get together, but not until I know he’s safe for u to be with.
We never got that far. He went 6 times and never talked to his counselor about his issues. His counselor told mine to get a restraining order on him and file; maybe that will wake him up.
He quit counseling immediately.
Robin,
I believe you, and I don’t doubt that couples counseling requires 2 WILLING parties. As I said before, I went to “couples counseling” 5 different times at my h urging. Every time they got close to dealing with h, he stopped going. Then we were left with several more years of chronic me trying to fix h, h saying I can’t be please…and I would suggest separation….only to have h suggest a new couple counseling time….this went on for more than a decade.
I believe you Robin, and am thankful for your voice of experience as well as God having protected you in your healing journey. Thank God for this!
Lori, I think it’s very hard for us women to get strong enough to separate- so when we do, I say let’s use that time we’ll. I spent a year in strict solitude when I separated the fiirst time. Leslie often talks about looking into the future, or 5 years from now. What will you have wished you spent this time of separation doing? If God was to heal your marriage (IF) what do u think u would want to concentrate on now???
I don’t think my husband will seek therapy and change—
But if he did, I would need to use every minute asking the Lord to build me up and create in me all He desires me to be. Separation is such a gift; a real opportunity to focus on our own transformation.
Robin,
I am definitely tracking with you sister.
“I think it’s very hard for us women to get strong enough to separate.”
Yes. It so goes against the grain of the covenant we made and intended to keep before the Lord and to our h. It is so hard to admit (especially in the face of such religious pressure) that our h have broken the covenant and we are no longer bound because of their unfaithfulness to it. Layers and layers of bad theology to recover from here.
And: “Separation is such a gift; a real opportunity to focus on our own transformation.”
Yes. If my h ever had a true posture of repentance and was willing to work at changing his mindset, I would need to be a much stronger and non reactive-abusive spouse to return to.
I have much work to do regardless of whether h does his work or not.
Separation is a gift, and an opportunity for both of us to use it as such. I intend to open this gift and live in it.
Thank you Robin. You are part of that gift
Lori, for the rest of my life I will never forget the day my counselor said we need to get him out, so I can begin healing. I simply had no idea or thought, what God was about to do. We’re definitely not near the finish line- but I have been flabbergasted to see all He had waiting for me. Thank you for all your kind words, Lori. We’re all part of each other’s stories. Lucky us.
Robin,
I am selfishly so very grateful for that day in your life. I am so very grateful for your journey and healing. For you, me and everyone here, we are all beneficiaries of your sharing.
Thank you for being available to support and offer your encouragement and insights.
May the Lord continue to hold your hand in His (and yours in His) until He walks you perfectly home. What a day that will be as we are perfectly healed forever.
Until then, thank you for holding all of our hands in your other hand.
Much love dear sister.
Nancy,
Thank you for your response and certainly it’s sad when others ‘can relate’ even though these things are quite prevenlent.. but it’s also healing in ways to see that you have others around you that can see the ‘system’ from a view.
~for me ….I don’t believe that the ‘system’ sets itself up to do what it does or has some master plan.., it usually begins first with that unhealthy marriage dynamic between mom&dad.
Given my situation the unfinished inner maturing parts of my parents fueled the cycle.
The more that it fed, the bigger those grow… sadly.
Nancy I’m so sorry to hear about some of your family experiences. But you know you have others around you that can validate your heart.
Yes your so right about that Narcissistic family tree…! The pitting against each other is such a great way to avoid any personal responsibility ….and I don’t know the great opportunity to ‘grow’??
Growing ‘or learning’ in this way is like Kryptonite to my family of origin.
I do believe that truth is a place that is a gift in ways we could have never thought.
I feel sad when my sisters in Christ have to go through difficult times and how the interactions with family of origin affect one another.
We can ask the Lord to direct your interactions and protect you as you get doses of your past.
I can very much relate to there not being a ‘full parent in the home’ although because my parents converted to Christianity ~ based in who they were comfortable around.. they liked the aspect of the Gospel message that accepts us where we are at;) Thank you Lord!
However the message of ‘transformation’ conflicts with the family system of (stay the same).
It took me along time to see the dots with control and power and the conflicts of that with a believer in Christ.
I do believe (for me at least) that this was a big part of the ‘familiar places’ of my h, and why I was drawn there.
Thank you again Nancy for sharing your heart and being such a prayer warrior here to us all!
Will continue to cover you in prayer as you navigate for your family Nancy;) 💗
Hi Aly,
“We can ask The Lord to direct your interactions and protect you as you get doses of your past.” This is HUGE, thank you.
I’ve realized that the boundaries I set with my h were equally important for me to learn how to step out of the dance. I totally agree with Robin who said that separation is a GIFT.
I thank God for the gift of that time apart.
Rose, I agree with Robin. You are tormenting yourself over this decision, when in fact, I think you already know what to do, but perhaps you are afraid of the unknown future. But you were afraid of moving out, too, weren’t you? And look–now you are glad you did. I think this is going to turn out better than you think. I know the sisters on this site are helping a lot, but I am wondering if you have a personal counselor to help you work through all of this? In a divorce decree, you can even get your husband to pay for the counseling. Talk with your lawyer about what it is possible for him to do. We are all praying for you, Rose. God is in control and He loves you and cares for you. So do we.
Dear Rose,
Praying for your courage and strength today.
I think the feedback that has been given is so good for your heart and health in so many ways.
I can hear your fear and that’s ok, I would be scared too but your faith and courage will be greater than it.
He will never Forsake you! Some of the steps you have taken so far are your courage rising up and it probably feels ‘so foreign’ to be deciding things… much like learning to walk or ride a bike.. those first few times feel so..not right, but then they become a bit more natural.
Your faith will guide you step by step even during the grief and the difficult decisions that are there to help you find safety.
And it’s certainly a possibility that in the future your h could surrender to the help he (currently is in deep denial of) needs.
You getting stronger and healthier is essential for your heart and care it’s not selfish.
God loves you so much!💖
My Dear Friends,
I’m sorry I have not had time to respond but will do so in a few hours. Love you all! xo
I did say that separation is a gift. I was married to my husband for 30 years. He subtly immersed me in his behaviors, till they just became my life and I had no hope it would ever change. My counselor pressed me to separate so I could begin the healing process. I really didn’t get that; unti the separation came. Suddenly someone was questioning and attacking me every moment. I could breathe for the first time in 30 years. Perhaps my immediate first impression, was finding out who Robin is and what she likes. I had been in a prison for so long- I didn’t even know ‘I’ mattered. So when I hear a woman in so much pain today, I ask her to take a weekend away, a week away, and find out who she really is and what she needs. One of the things I did within 3 months of the separation was spend a week on the beach with a motel with ocean view. I couldn’t have done anything kinder. The ocean is so healing. I gained so much peace and clarity.
I have people ask me – don’t you get lonely? My answer is always the same. NO!!! I raised 4 children and an abusive spouse, the separation was my turn to find myself, and wait on the Lord to just love me and fill me up to running over. YES separation is a kind gift, to clear our heads and our desires.
Robin,
I relate so closely with this! A turning point for me was telling (not asking–telling–a first for me!) my husband that I was going away for a week, needed x amount of dollars, had arranged my transportation, etc. I went to an ancient monastery for a silent retreat in a beautiful, secluded valley amidst forested hills. The nature soothed my soul, and the Lord spoke clearly to me there. My confusion was gone, and clarity came. I returned a different person–truly. Everything changed from that point.
I feel my separation as a gift now also. Freedom, peace, kindness; that is my life now without him around. And I cannot imagine being lonely, either. The Lord’s kindness and love fills every empty spot.
T.L.
As I read your comment my heart just melted!
I’m so thankful that you shared this as it’s possible for mom’s to bring a blessing even much later to an open wound in your children.
It certainly can begin a process of having a healthier relationship with them as adults;)
Wow! Your the picture of how ‘it’s never to late’ and it how the journey you are taking is freeing you from that prisoner role!
Currently, my own mom is still organized around my father and has filled her life with many distractions to not feel…I will continue to pray for my own mom.. but this made my day… it brings me SO much Joy to see that healing begin with you and your children🤗
Prayers for your heart and protection for your path!
Thank you, Aly. ❤️
I can easily imagine that 2 of my daughters (who were the first to break with the narcissistic family system–and I am the 3rd!) would have said similar things about me that you are saying about your mom. They tried to get me to see–but I couldn’t face it until…I could face it. My adult daughters are now dear friends as well as my daughters and sisters in Christ.
Perhaps one day your mom will come out of the fog, too.
Sweet Aly,
“Currently, my own mom is still organized around my father and has filled her life with many distractions to not feel.”
I am sorry for your loss here. Such a sad sad reality. I will pray for your mother as well.
So glad God has taken such good care for you and you have followed the true and real road on your journey.
Thank you for being willing to walk life on lifes terms, learn the lessons and allow yourself to be the very wise and kind sister you are to others.
I am blessed to have crossed your path. Your capacity to love is huge, and your wisdom runs a close second to the love you have to offer others. I have received so much of this love from you and I am ever grateful.
May the Lord tuck you close and continue to guide you as you walk into your future with Him!
Beautiful words TL. I smile as I read each word. God never expected us to live imprisoned lives. I still can’t get over the constant peace and joy.
I’m very happy to hear what the Lord is doing in you!!!!!
T.L.
Thank you so much for your words here;)
Such a blessing that you have begun that healthy relationship with them so that their kids can see too!
It means a lot because the grief isn’t just between me and her.. it’s between my young children her (grandchildren) as well and the health of their relationship… which wasn’t much, when someone is constantly unavailable.
I’ve had to place ‘strong boundaries’ so they are protected from the (toxic modeling) and not wounded by more unbalanced expectations.
You most certainly don’t have to share.., but I’m curious what brought you to facing your situation and getting clarity?
~as you are probably well aware… “the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of changing.”~
Long term patterns are hard because we get so desensitized to what’s taking place.
Dear Aly,
You asked, “You most certainly don’t have to share.., but I’m curious what brought you to facing your situation and getting clarity?
~as you are probably well aware… “the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of changing.”~
Long term patterns are hard because we get so desensitized to what’s taking place.”
Yes, I would say that is exactly it. I could not stand the pain anymore…years of emotional, verbal, and spiritual abuse. And then when I began to confront it, behaviors went underground, and I was effectively back-burnered, ignored. If I wasn’t going to continue to pretend, then I would not be allowed to exist.
Also, I will say that my 2 daughters breaking out of the family system and making boundaries for themselves was a catalyst for me. It increased my pain and I began to have the courage to be honest…to stand up to the Emperor and say, “Hey. You have no clothes on!”
So I pray your boundaries will be effective in helping your mom move toward honesty…
Also Ladies, did you all see that Brave Rabbit has asked for some help on the How Do I Stop Second Guessing stream of comments?
TL,
About the dinner invitation.
You mentioned the conversation came up (with the elders) just days ago about how he had stomped on your heart years ago and ignored it….not even asking for dinner date etc.
It occurs to me (because I think it was Aly who shared how h who want a behavior handbook are not really seeking for heart change, then when they get tired of following the handbook, they revert back to where they started) that because this conversation happened in front of the elders, perhaps your h wants to be able to say (to the elders and himself and any who might question h role and effort) he made the effort to restore.
Not sure, but given the way h recently dismissed you in front of your friends, I wonder how sincere h invitation is?
That is a very good point Lori. He may really be trying; but he is more than likely (subconsciously or consciously) manipulating. However, if he is manipulating, he is already ahead of the game. Because if I go, he can use it as evidence of his good intentions. If I don’t go, he can use it as evidence of my bad intentions. Hehe. Win-win for him, I guess! 😐
TL,
“if I go, he can use it as evidence of his good intentions. If I don’t go, he can use it as evidence of my bad intentions.”
Dichotomy for sure. I get ya.
So let’s do what we feel is best for ourselves no matter how we might be seen. That is a win – win for us.
I am learning so much from your precious friendship.
Thank you for sharing your journey
T.L.
Thanks for your update and certainly your heart here as these waters are not easy.
I don’t want to make assumptions here.. especially if I have misread something… and I wouldn’t have any (yes or no) feedback as to if you should do dinner with him.
I think you have done lots of your own work and you are learning more and more about finding those needs that are legitimate to you.
I think it’s important in this process to learn how to assert your voice in your dynamic with him…with what is required to earn trust towards the ‘chance’ of reconciliation.
Even if he doesn’t hear your position, at least you have heard yourself speak truth.
This part of my journey with my h was … not for him, but for me.
I also wonder if it would be possible for you to have that conversation with him with his counselor ~ many times a counselor can benefit by seeing the reactions in both parties and how both people are responding to one another.
I’m not saying couples counseling here..
You mentioned he is getting personal counseling, I wonder what other interventions does he have where maybe he can see his own behavior in other male.
For ex:A male recovery group etc.? I think these groups help men see their own behavior patterns in others process and help them find healing and acceptance where they are at.
They also begin to get a different definition of what is repentance really..what is ‘godly husband’ and being a child of God for themselves.
Don’t want to make this too long but one thing that our counselor helped me work on what identifying the ‘behavior’
(I see this.. or I experience that) I was seeing in my h and helped solidify my requirements and personal needs for healing.
For my h … we had to do the ratio of how much interventions were necessary to address the ‘mindset issue’
I will pray for you and your decisions~ your strong and I know God will help you descern where to step.
Much hugs and love💗
Hi Aly,
Thank you for your input. The communication between us is very minimal. The only intervention in place is his internet-based program and Skyping with the counselor whose program it is. I just got an email from the counselor today, asking if I had any input for him, or questions. So I will write him back…he may get quite an earful. (Eyeful, in this case. 🙂 ) I could ask him about a joint counseling session and see…
We are currently not living in a country where a male recovery group would be an option, unless there is an internet one?
Thank you, Aly.
Gosh, I love you ladies!
TL I agree with Lori. I had a similar experience after my husbands counselor told him to do 2 things and I allowed it. When his manipulative scheme didn’t work at least I chose to honor him regardless of what he chose. I wanted to honor his choice to try something good. But of course his good became a deceit to cover. I think if your heart says yes- go for it. If your heart is too exhausted it’s perfectly fine and loving too self to say – not at this time.
Hi T.L.,
Thank you for your gracious response to my overly enthusiastic post telling you what to do! Ya, after reading these ladies much more thoughtful ( less reactive) posts, I am grateful for each of you <3
Lori,
Oh my goodness;) your words just made me cry you are too kind and so thoughtful to write.
I really don’t have words to say thankyou for seeing me for me.
I’m still going through lots of grief given my relationship with my mom so Thank you SO much for your prayers!
It’s really healing to find a safe place where we can relate to so many facets of these family dynamics. ~Where we can be vulnerable but courageous as we learn more about ourselves and offer love and care to others. 💕
Thank you again for your beautiful heart and willingness to be such a support!
Oh Lori,
I know it’s a lot of work.. so I hope that didn’t sound daunting. I meant for it to be a place to begin building.
This was pivotal for me to be able to move forward with hope for healing.
I knew during the most difficult times it was SO hard to give words to my trust issues that were not my responsibility to rebuild.
I will continue to pray for you both and the separation, that each of you are experiencing the highest possible good (love) from God and others.
Thank you for your peace and your heart, it’s precious!
Aly,
I lose track sometimes on these threads….which work were you afraid sounded daunting to me? Sorry
I am sorry for the grief you carry about your losses in your family of origin. Praying for you now that God will bless and heal those wounded places in you and for you.
T.L.
Your so sweet and your love is evident!
Thank you;)
I’m pretty sure there are internet/ VoIP groups available or call in groups out there.
You husbands counselor would maybe be more aware.. of what those are…
but I do believe that men having a place for accountability, perspectives & Godly love are pivotal to the deeper shame and significance issues.
I’m glad you will be able to give your experience of where things are so far to the counselor.
I think it’s quite important to the process.
Just to clarify.. I wasn’t suggesting couples counseling.. ~
I just think that it can be beneficial for the counselor to see behavior interact because a lot of unseen behavior can happen based on the ‘two’ coming together and how both people interact.
(Just a thought)
Maybe this is redundant, or past places..but have you been able to ask your h…these?
H, Do you think you have a problem with control, superior thinking and anger?
H, how do you think you are doing working on the areas of these?
H, do you think your behaviors have resulted in breaking trust in the marriage and what are you willing to do?? and what do you think it will take to rebuild that?
Your being covered in prayer T.L. Stay sane and safe💟
Lori,
Oops..
should have posted. I certainly could have read more into it. Just didn’t mean to come across like a long trek;) it is but it’s 2 willing parties.
I wrote:
“The biggest issue is as you stated does he have any authentic contrition ‘for the impact’ this has had on you for such a long time? This is a serious trust issue that he should be able to resonate to given the length of the separation and the interventions he has in place. Does he know how to describe the inner issues in him that have driven his destructive outward behavior? ”
You wrote;
“Such insightful questions. Not even close to exploring this, but it helps me realize how far from any kind of “together again” possibility this is for my h and I.”
Lori, thank u for the very kind words. I appreciate them and you!
I’m glad we can all travel this road together, of separations, making tough decisions, and growing up into all Christ has for each of us!!!
TL, let me explain my response to your husbands efforts and what options u have. I think it all depends on where u are. When my husband attempted similar things I was completely worn out. But sometimes I have thought back to – what he was doing the best he knew to do?
I get the whole thing about him needing repentance and change of behaviors. But what if this is a start?
I’m not defending him. I waited too long. After 30 years and working so hard to make things better it was time for me to give up and let God.
But if your heart is still somewhat soft and you’d like to hand him a lifeline and say this is what I need, thank you for the effort since last counsel session. Only the Lordcan lead u rightly. Be we can encourage you!!!!
Thank you Robin, and everyone for your input.
I have decided to go. He wants to give me an update on his counseling. (I wrote to his counselor last night, by the way.) I will listen to that. I will ask questions (which you have all helped me to formulate–especially thanks to Aly here.)
I go with low hopes and emotional boundaries to protect myself. I am prepared to walk out if I need to. I don’t intend to tolerate any manipulation etc. Hopefully, I will be wise as a serpent and innocent as a dove.
I would appreciate prayer covering; we are meeting in 10 minutes. I’ll report back later.
Thank you–you are such awesome sisters!
TL,
Holding you and yours in prayer before our Father. Glad I checked messages here in time to be in prayer.
Blessings!
Prayer indeed T.L.
Lord, you are our strength and our healer, you see all. Protect TL during this visit and give her the strength and discernment💕
Praying T. L., for protection, wisdom, strength and clarity in this meeting. I am late in seeing this, but The Lord is outside of time 🙂
TL- Praying!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hello My Beautiful Sisters,
Thank you for your counsel, warnings, input, and especially your prayer cover. I am happy to report that your prayers for strength and grace were answered.
I didn’t tell you this little tidbit, but at the meeting with the elder and his wife, you know how I reminded him that he had stomped on and crushed my heart our whole marriage long? And when I began to grow strong and “find my voice” I told him so, and that he had lost my heart and would need to win it back, but instead he back-burnered the marriage and ignored me as much as he could?…I asked him, in the last 3 1/2 years (as long as we had been at this church with this elder) how many times have you taken me out on a date or done nice things for me? Well, besides the “I love you” text the next day, and inviting me to dinner, today he showed up with a beautiful bouquet of flowers. (Extreme frugality is part of his Personality Disorder, and he normally would only MAYBE buy flowers for birthday or Mother’s Day, and then only the lowest priced ones he could find.) Today it was a truly beautiful bouquet–he did not scrimp and was obviously trying hard to impress me. (Hard to be at all impressed when he is so transparent with trying to prove he is trying. But maybe a slight step in the right direction? Remains to be seen.)
Anyway, we went for a casual dinner, and he told me a little about a weekend trip he recently took visiting some Care personnel for our ministry organization; how they talked for hours and he really opened up. Next he told me that he is traveling tomorrow to live and work in a Christian community for a week…that he wrote to them and told them of his pain and struggles, and he will go there for ministry, counsel, deep fellowship. (Oookay. I guess that’s good…but how much is he telling them? How much control is he letting go of? How transparent is/will he be?)
Next he updated me on his counseling/coaching program for destructive men. He has completed all assignments and has done all the extra/not required lessons available too. (Very nice; but part of his PD is perfectionism. Being the best. So of course he did. His self-worth is dependent on his job performance –except relationally. That doesn’t factor in.) The topics he has done all sound great, perfect, to the point. He spoke about how good it all was, biblically sound, he was in agreement with it all. And that he is connecting very well with the counselor. I said, “I have heard you state that you haven’t learned anything you didn’t already know. Is that true?” Yes, true. Nope. Nothing new. Knows it all. He just needs to get it all into daily life. He needs to work hard to apply it, to remember, daily, moment by moment. Here is where we hit a bit of a rough spot, because I said, “It seems to me that the power is in a change of heart; heart reformation, so that your actions are the fruit of a changed heart. Not simply thinking right thoughts that you have to work hard to translate into action. That sounds like works and performance.” He said, “I’m sorry you are unable to see the connection. What I am saying is………….” When he finished, I told him that I was being triggered, because our entire marriage his being right was always the most important thing to him. If I had a little different idea, a different perspective, he would get defensive and argue and explain why his point was right; never (yes; never!) valuing my opinion, perspective. I told him that in this instance, when our marriage is in the state its in, it would be much more important that he showed me he valued my opinion than proving his point. And that reveals to me where his heart is. He just said, “Ok.” The look on his face revealed his stifled frustration as he decided to not argue.
Then I told him that I wanted to say a few things to him so that we are clear. I told him that flowers and dinner were really nice, but that I was concerned that he thinks that doing a few things like that would “win my heart back.” I told him that my trust in him is completely gone, and that it would take a long time and a lot of work to rebuild trust. I told him that it would not be easy, it would not be quick. That our marriage does not need restoration, but a complete demolishment and starting over, rebuilding on a new foundation. Again: a lot of work. I told him that I would need to know that I am prized, valued, cherished. And that frankly, I don’t think he cares that much about me; that he doesn’t value me enough to do that much work. I told him I thought he valued an intact marriage, but not me. And valuing the marriage isn’t enough for me. He would need to prove over time, that he valued me. I said, “I need you to understand that i will never live with you again, unless you do this. But you need to think about it; to count the cost. Because it will cost a lot.” He just looked at me, not knowing how to respond. And then I said, well, let’s get going. And we left. He walked me home and thanked me for going to dinner with him, and I thanked him, too.
On the whole, I am glad I went. I do not feel defeated, exhausted, or terrorized. I feel strong and confident and thankful to the Lord for being my strength. I feel that I sent him a clear and sobering message. I made sure he knew that whether or not he valued me; I know my value.
Thank you so, so much for praying for me! Love you all!
TL,
Thanks for the detailed description. Nice to hear that what you have been working on (valuing yourself and expecting the same from others) is coming through loud and clear.
Way to handle being triggered. Phew….I am not sure I am ready for this kinda encounter.
Well done! Bravo!
Wow! You were really brave. And wise!!!!
About 20 years ago when I was leaving my 1st h, I went to the gov’t. office where they have resources for women like us, and there was this book called, “Please don’t Bring Me Flowers”. It just grabbed my attention. When I did leave him, one day he sent me ‘$100 to do with as I liked. Notice that had never happened before. After that he was quite angry because I think he truly thought that would bring me running back into his arms. So I knew there were strings (ropes) attached to this ‘gift’. I would never have known what to say or even what it was that was really going on. We didn’t have books and blogs like this then.
My friend at that time also left a very abusive husband. Just a few years ago for her 60th birthday he sent 60 roses with a note, “I forgive you”. Sometimes I just can’t fathom their thinking!!!!
Well done TL, wow u were amazingly strong in the Lord💜
Thank you so much for such detail, T.L. It sounds like you were super clear and strong in The Lord!
I love the way you contrasted valuing the marriage versus valuing you! That is God’s heart for what marriage is. It’s about the people in it and how they care and love on one another. I said this recently to my h, that I felt as though our marriage had become a thing, a separate entity ( an idol). That I was committed to him, not to ‘ the marriage’. I still feel as though there is more untangling that needs doing in my own heart, about this reality. Your words have helped this a bit more, for me 🙂
I also love that you gave him total freedom, and encouraged him to take time and to count the cost.
Praising God for His Faithfulness to you, T.L.!
Thank you Nancy, Robin, and Lori.
Goodness! Just looked over my entry…didn’t realize how long-winded I was when I was typing it–sorry if it’s TMI!!
T.L.
So glad to hear that the dinner went well and you could assert yourself and your value.
Yes! So agree with the other ladies that you set the stage and gave a clear reality for the kind of work ahead!
So thankful that we could all pray for you! 💗
TL, I was working when your good report came thru so I couldn’t say much, but I am so proud of your courage to ‘stand up’ as Leslie says in her book. It’s so easy to lose our strength with someone who can be so powerful and who doesn’t back down. It sounds like you ‘silenced him’ and that came from the Lord, obviously. Well done sister!!!!!💜
Wonderful, T.L., you handled that well, with grace and truth! Praise the Lord!!!!
Thank you, JoAnn, Aly, Nancy, et.al.
Of course, I have been hounded with thoughts of “I was too hard,” etc., etc. But I am determined to trust the Lord for the process. I couldn’t have said the perfect thing perfectly, because it doesn’t exist in this world. So the bit that I said this time, and the way I said it, I pray that the Lord would use it in his process (as well as mine.)
He left today for a week-long stay in a Bruderhof community. He’s always admired them and loved their writings. He said he is hoping to learn about relationships through their community.
TL,
The way you handled your dinner with h and the obvious health you are walking in is so inspirational and I rejoice with you that you are healing and growing stronger with each new day!
Praying God continue to undergird you and guide you. He did a pretty good job of that for you at the dinner. 🙂
Dear Lori, So often your messages are so very encouraging to others, and especially to Rose, that I forget that you are still working your way through your own grief and pain. My heart aches for both you and Rose, and I pray that the Lord will comfort your hearts and bring peace and hope to you. I have learned that when I find myself in a dark place, it is so good to invite the Lord to come in there with me. So often He brings me a message of love and peace, and it is such a healing to my soul. Our precious Lord is happy to walk through the “valley of the shadow of death” with us. Note that it is only a shadow. You will get through this….it is His promise.
JoAnn,
Thank you for your encouragement that: “Our precious Lord is happy to walk through the “valley of the shadow of death” with us. Note that it is only a shadow. You will get through this….it is His promise.”
Very encouraging JoAnn.
A very tangible shadow it is. My physical heart aches and tears flow more easily than ever. This, just when I was feeling so grateful to be out from under the oppression.
Sometimes the pull to just cave and return to the familiar is overwhelming as the present is such a foreign place to me. (albeit a place of deliverance and freedom)
Also, because the decision was made by myself to separate, (h would never have suggested this as it is against h religion), the pain seems self inflicted.
There is also the pain of knowing I am being blamed by h for his pain. H blames me for the loss of relationship with his children and the discomfort of his lodgings, as well as the failed marriage. H also blames the children for not having relationship with h so I see the problem lies with h, but the weight of the blame is something that penetrates me much more readily than it seems to penetrate my children. They seem to see right through h blame and don’t seem to feel responsible at all. I am happy for their ability not to own it, but definitely wonder why I do?
I woke up this morning and asked God what I need to heal more and the term I have seen somewhere in my searchings came to mind: “narcissistic wounding”.
I know very little about this, but wondered if this seems like a good starting point for discovering my wounded places with the hope of healing?
Sometimes the pain of the loss of 30 years of investment just seems so very unbearable. I don’t want to bargain for it to be different, but it is hard to revisit the fresh grave so to speak, and I don’t know what brought me back there.
It is easy to see in someone else’s story that they would be much better off without an abusive h, and to encourage them in that way. Not so easy to help myself.
Thought I was sailing along just great. Hit a sand bar or something?
Lori,
I have written you a reply, but it says “Awaiting Moderation.” Not sure how long that will take. I am wondering if it is because of some links I put in…?
T.L.,
I am praying along with you that The Lord would use your words and this upcoming week to touch your h in a new way. That your h would have an encounter with our living God. I also pray a prayer of protection over your mind, that The Lord will enable you to take each thought captive to Christ Jesus.
Grace and Peace to you, T.L. this day, for the upcoming week, and in your journey forward with The Lord.
Thank you so much for those insightful prayers, Nancy. xo
Darling Lori,
I would guess that it is safe to assume that all of our sisters here can see the same thing plainly about you: you are one of the kindest, most tender-hearted people I have ever “met.” Your ability to enter into the pain of others–really enter in–in spite of your own is beautiful and precious and valuable…and we have all benefited by that beautiful gift our Father has bestowed upon you.
But that gift, that beautiful strength of mercy that you have, makes you very vulnerable, too. Because the very fact that you can feel another’s pain, means that you can feel the pain of your husband. Most of us, as someone said here (Nancy, maybe? Or Robin?) are empaths…and narcissists feed off of us like a bat sucks blood.
I think that all of the feelings you are describing are shared by all of us…it ebbs and flows…like a wave on the shore. I also sometimes feel the oppression of knowing how my husband views things: I am the problem, I can’t get over the past, I can’t forgive, I am harming him and hurting him, ruining his life and his ministry. I am blamed, like you, for uncomfortable lodgings, poisoning the kids against him, etc. Sometimes I feel overwhelming compassion for the humiliation, the isolation, the rejection and confusion that I know he is feeling. And then I talk to my support people, some of whom are my own adult children, who remind me of the truth. (He’s reaping what he has sewn, he needs this pain to change, he is responsible for what he is going through, etc., etc., ) Or I listen to a Patrick Doyle video and remind myself of what I am dealing with.
Lori, I am trying to think…at those weak moments, I think the most helpful things to me have really been Patrick Doyle videos, as I mentioned, and reaching out to my friends who know my story. I can’t remember at the moment: do you have any friends who know and understand your story?
Lori, you said:
“I woke up this morning and asked God what I need to heal more and the term I have seen somewhere in my searchings came to mind: “narcissistic wounding”.
I know very little about this, but wondered if this seems like a good starting point for discovering my wounded places with the hope of healing?”
I don’t know the answer to this because I had never heard this term; perhaps one of the other ladies can answer. But it sure sounds like a good thing to research. And I thank you for mentioning it, because I will look into it too.
Perhaps I have already mentioned her, but a new resource that I have recently found is Dr. Diane Langberg. She is a powerful woman of God that has blessed me very much. She has speaking videos on trauma, narcissism, godly and ungodly leadership in the church and home, etc.
Narcissism and the Systems it Breeds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BU3pwBa0qU
What is the Bible’s View of Narcissistic Leaders: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a3J_HBcK_4
http://www.foclonline.org/talk/leadership-power-and-authority-church-and-home
Lori, dear Lori, I am so sorry for the grief that you are revisiting right now; you spoke of the loss of 30 years of investment being unbearable. I know that feeling, but I want to speak some truth to you that I hope will help:
The loss of the marriage is real, and it is terribly sad, and it is so very appropriate to grieve it. But that 30 years, the horrible, unbearable, unjust pressure of those years produced a character in you that is remarkably beautiful. God did not waste those years on you. He used them to shape you and has something ahead of you that is far “above all that you could ever ask or think.” God doesn’t waste our pain. There is redemption ahead. We can’t see it yet. We don’t know what shape it will take. But it is certain.
One last thing about the valley of the shadow…as dear JoAnn said; it is just a shadow…and also the word is “through.” We go *through* the valley of the shadow of death. We will get to the other side.
Take heart, my lovely sister. He is in the waiting. And He holds you so close.
Praying loving prayers for you. xo
TL,
I watched the Diane Langberg link you shared with me on Narcissism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BU3pwBa0qU
Although it is just over 1 hour long, it took me around 2 to watch it as I was taking word for word notes in many places.
You said: “Be kind to yourself. This wave of confusion will pass.”
Well, now I can’t remember what I was confused about just a couple of days ago. (it passed) 🙂
What I do know, is that Narcissistic Personality Disorder is the NAME of the thing I have been at war against in my marriage and family of origin. I SEE it now, in the “Christian”counseling office where I was abused, (you can’t imagine my shock as Diane’s exposing of how counselors end up asking women to take their shirts off in sessions was an EXACT retelling of my story), in private Christian school and in many of the churches I have attended in the past.
I remember wishing I could identify the abuse I experienced in my marriage, but since I had no bruises on my body (that would have been easier I think), he didn’t abuse any substance, and he didn’t have an affair. It was crazy making not to be able to identify “the problem”.
Diane’s video told my story with EVERY word she shared.
CLARITY! It is a maddening thing to see all the “invisible” symptoms of a disease and not be able to identify it, because it caused me to wonder about MY sanity. Indeed, that would be the nature of NPD, to cause others to question their reality enough to deny it. WOW.
It is a gift from God to be able to identify it and define it so I can stay clear of it. (black hole to hell)
As grateful as I am for the gift, I am also very sad to know my h suffers so from it, and counselors and helpers seem to be very ill equipped to help. When he left a year ago, I asked him to seek individual counseling and he asked “what for?” I answered “narcissism”. He went to a counselor and told him I thought he was “narcissistic”, to which h said counselor replied: ” we all have n tendencies”, and moved on. Come to think of it, since I wasn’t there at the time, my h (NPD) could have made that statement up. Just don’t know the truth with NPD’s.
Now I understand your sharing one time of being the one to say “the emperor has no clothes”. I have said this in so very many places and have paid a very heavy price for being a truth teller. I do know God has created a character or person in me to withstand a lot of pain, isolation and opposition. I am okay with being a truth teller as it has been my lifeline, my sanity. However, I am not okay with oppression and am giving great thanks that it has been moved a distance away from me and my children.
It concerns me very much that my h may be one who has had this practice so very long that h might not be reachable (Diane talks about this in her video), but now I know how better to pray for h.
Also, knowing this disorder and it’s symptoms/expressions has helped me not to take h actions so personally (thus wounding my empathetic heart) and is helping me to protect my heart better now as well.
THANK YOU for the link, and the prayers for clarity. Fog has cleared and it is crystal clear in a way I only saw dimly before.
I expect to need to watch the video again on occasion.
What a very sad/very DESTRUCTIVE disorder.
(Trying it again; cut and pasted it without the links to see if it gets through.)
Darling Lori,
I would guess that it is safe to assume that all of our sisters here can see the same thing plainly about you: you are one of the kindest, most tender-hearted people I have ever “met.” Your ability to enter into the pain of others–really enter in–in spite of your own is beautiful and precious and valuable…and we have all benefited by that beautiful gift our Father has bestowed upon you.
But that gift, that beautiful strength of mercy that you have, makes you very vulnerable, too. Because the very fact that you can feel another’s pain, means that you can feel the pain of your husband. Most of us, as someone said here (Nancy, maybe? Or Robin?) are empaths…and narcissists feed off of us like a bat sucks blood.
I think that all of the feelings you are describing are shared by all of us…it ebbs and flows…like a wave on the shore. I also sometimes feel the oppression of knowing how my husband views things: I am the problem, I can’t get over the past, I can’t forgive, I am harming him and hurting him, ruining his life and his ministry. I am blamed, like you, for uncomfortable lodgings, poisoning the kids against him, etc. Sometimes I feel overwhelming compassion for the humiliation, the isolation, the rejection and confusion that I know he is feeling. And then I talk to my support people, some of whom are my own adult children, who remind me of the truth. (He’s reaping what he has sewn, he needs this pain to change, he is responsible for what he is going through, etc., etc., ) Or I listen to a Patrick Doyle video and remind myself of what I am dealing with.
Lori, I am trying to think…at those weak moments, I think the most helpful things to me have really been Patrick Doyle videos, as I mentioned, and reaching out to my friends who know my story. I can’t remember at the moment: do you have any friends who know and understand your story?
Lori, you said:
“I woke up this morning and asked God what I need to heal more and the term I have seen somewhere in my searchings came to mind: “narcissistic wounding”.
I know very little about this, but wondered if this seems like a good starting point for discovering my wounded places with the hope of healing?”
I don’t know the answer to this because I had never heard this term; perhaps one of the other ladies can answer. But it sure sounds like a good thing to research. And I thank you for mentioning it, because I will look into it too.
Lori, dear Lori, I am so sorry for the grief that you are revisiting right now; you spoke of the loss of 30 years of investment being unbearable. I know that feeling, but I want to speak some truth to you that I hope will help:
The loss of the marriage is real, and it is terribly sad, and it is so very appropriate to grieve it. But that 30 years, the horrible, unbearable, unjust pressure of those years produced a character in you that is remarkably beautiful. God did not waste those years on you. He used them to shape you and has something ahead of you that is far “above all that you could ever ask or think.” God doesn’t waste our pain. There is redemption ahead. We can’t see it yet. We don’t know what shape it will take. But it is certain.
One last thing about the valley of the shadow…as dear JoAnn said; it is just a shadow…and also the word is “through.” We go *through* the valley of the shadow of death. We will get to the other side.
Take heart, my lovely sister. He is in the waiting. And He holds you so close.
Praying loving prayers for you. xo
TL
Thank you so much for saying: “all of our sisters here can see the same thing plainly about you: you are one of the kindest, most tender-hearted people I have ever “met.”
It is very encouraging to me to hear these words, as I have been described in very different terms by my family of origin, my h family, and my h. Perhaps they see a different me as I have navigated my way through relationship waters with them. I thought you should know that others see me differently.
Thank you for asking: “I can’t remember at the moment: do you have any friends who know and understand your story?”
I do have my sister and one other friend who is not readily available. I have a hard time reaching out and have feared drawing others into the whole destructive dynamic. My trust issues seem to run very deep and perhaps I am just getting in touch with how truly deeply I have been wounded. It is frightening to experience this thawing and I don’t want to expose those wounds to just anyone. Don’t know if that makes sense?
I think I have spent a lot of my years caring for and about others and this new idea of caring for myself is just so uncomfortably personal at times.
And: “But that 30 years, the horrible, unbearable, unjust pressure of those years produced a character in you that is remarkably beautiful. God did not waste those years on you. He used them to shape you and has something ahead of you that is far “above all that you could ever ask or think.” God doesn’t waste our pain.”
Thank you for this TL. I receive it as truth.
And this: “There is redemption ahead. We can’t see it yet. We don’t know what shape it will take. But it is certain.”
Without this truth, we are lost and hopeless are we not?
Thank you for your time and thoughtful, personal reply.
I am grateful to know we can travel this road with each other. We are in some very wonderful company.
Dear Precious Lori,
I can’t account for why these groups of people are blinded to what is so clear to all of us here. Perhaps because you had to be strong in order to extract yourself from unhealthy family and marital dynamics? And that is threatening, and so you are seen as unkind or uncaring.
It’s clear you are not.
I agree with JoAnn about your tears. I have had to walk through excruciating grief (besides the marital grief.) The tears are cleansing and healing, even though they are somehow frightening and threatening. And they are precious to God. Jesus is a “man of sorrows, well-acquainted with grief” and He is by your side with every tear. He weeps along with you, Lori. He weeps for the pain that His precious ones feel; that we are subjected to in this fallen, broken, very sad world. I’m praying for a deep awareness of His presence, as near as your breath, as you weep and grieve. He holds you near and dear. So do we.
Lori, one other thing: I have been surprised at how very understanding and supportive people around me were, once I explained the truth of my marriage. Perhaps this is because my husband’s personality is such that it wasn’t hard for others to believe it was true. And it may be different in your case. But it was so validating and comforting, when I risked reaching out to others, to find that they believed me and wanted to help and support me. I do pray for more of those supports in your life.
TL,
Thank you for your encouragement: “Jesus is a “man of sorrows, well-acquainted with grief” and He is by your side with every tear. He weeps along with you, Lori. He weeps for the pain that His precious ones feel; that we are subjected to in this fallen, broken, very sad world. I’m praying for a deep awareness of His presence, as near as your breath, as you weep and grieve. He holds you near and dear. So do we.”
And this: “I do pray for more of those supports in your life.”
I will continue praying and be willing to reach out. I am hearing this is important from both you and Robin.
One thing I have a very hard time explaining (because there was no physical abuse, or infidelity or addiction of any kind) is the nature of the problems I had with h.
Somehow, because there are no bruises visible or anything else visible to the eye, it is hard for me to justify or validate to myself that I was emotionally abused. Especially when I know I was guilty of reactive abuse.
Perhaps I need to get back to the reasons and pour over them again. I am certain that I had good reason to leave.
My point here is that if I have trouble pinpointing the behavior h was involved with that caused so much destruction, how can I share with others who would want to know why?
If I sound confused right now, it is because I feel confused.
Sweet Lori, I think your questions are good. It’s important that we question our own hearts and motives, and do our own heart “housekeeping.” Getting the log out/speck out analogy. And other times I think we are just being undermined by the enemy of our souls, who still wants us to suffer mental abuse, even when our abuser is gone. He is called “The Accuser of the brethren.” And the Father of lies.
Perfect love casts out all fear, and we can withstand and sit in self-examination before the Lord, because we know He wants our welfare and freedom. We can sort through these things with Him safely. And then if we are still plagued, we know where it’s coming from. And we resist and reject the lies and accusations.
Be kind to yourself. This wave of confusion will pass and clarity will grow.
I’m praying that the Lord brings you a “bosom friend,” one who will understand and support you on your journey to the freedom that Jesus came to bring you.
Precious Lori,
I am glad for those tears you are shedding… they are precious in God’s eyes. They represent 30 years of pain and anguish, so just let them flow. It’s healthy.
Sometimes when I let my tears flow, if I pay attention, I can hear a thought flowing along with them. then I have discovered that the thought is really the source of the tears. That is when you can invite the Lord in to speak His truth to neutralize that painful thought. Sometimes it reaches back very far into my history, so I know it has been there a very long time. I hope that this might help you. You will get through this!
JoAnn,
Thank you for sharing: “Sometimes when I let my tears flow, if I pay attention, I can hear a thought flowing along with them. then I have discovered that the thought is really the source of the tears. That is when you can invite the Lord in to speak His truth to neutralize that painful thought. Sometimes it reaches back very far into my history, so I know it has been there a very long time. I hope that this might help you.”
It is so beautiful in it’s simplicity. It helps me not be so afraid of my tears, or feel so foreign to them.
Those close to me all share the similar observation that they have rarely or ever seen my cry. I tell them I think that button was broken so very long ago, and so it is very unfamiliar to me to experience this phenomenon.
I really appreciate how you have spoken to the health and healing in this deeply engaging experience. One day, I may be healthy enough to let them flow when I am in the presence of other safe companions. I have stuffed my pain for so very long and sealed it off with my efforts to protect myself and children.
Now that I am not having to work incessantly at protection of either, my guard seems to be coming down and it is a bit terrifying to drop it.
This safe community is such a wonderful harbor of wisdom and peace for me to let down and breathe for a moment. I hope this feeling that I need to be battle ready at any given moment can leave me for longer periods of time so I can truly rest. Tears…more tears….I have had to be strong for so very long and I am very weary.
Now, as I pause and invite the Lord in to speak His truth to neutralize the painful thought, (thank you for your guidance here JoAnn) perhaps I am hearing Him say to rest….the battle belongs to Him.
Thank you for seeing me, and encouraging me that the tears are friends.
Dear T.L., I love how you said that: “Most of us, are empaths…and narcissists feed off of us like a bat sucks blood.” That is so very true. If you read about Narcissistic personality disorder, and there is plenty online, you learn just that. They prey on people that they perceive as being weak willed and unable to resist their charm. They are especially dangerous to children, and they are “never wrong.” Now that you have gotten stronger, by God’s mercy and grace, he can’t suck you dry anymore.
I also like what you said about God not wasting the years…there is a verse in the OT where the Lord promises that He “will restore the years that the locusts have eaten.” This is His promise to us. I will never forget the moment when the Lord showed me that my suffering had made me the person I am today: compassionate and empathic and able to comfort others. Such are needed in the Body of Christ. It was a life-changing moment for me. Just reading all the posts on this blog should convince all of us that the Lord has instilled great wisdom in each and every one as you have all suffered through… By the way, we haven’t heard from Rose in a while. I hope she’s ok and will be praying for her.
Yes,JoAnn, I so agree about the beautiful compassion and wisdom of the women on this blog, which has been forged in the fires of our suffering.
And I have been praying for Rose, too. Hoping to hear from her soon.
You are such a blessing and encouragement, JoAnn. ♥️
Thank you, T.L. I love you all, and I’ve learned so much from you all.
I hope that Rose will see the new blog entitled “Is divorce a sin?” Perhaps it will help her to see more clearly.
Yes, JoAnn; I hope it helps her and relieves her!
Lori, I also have severely dysfunctional family of origin. I have a funny story. When I got sick and tired of being sick and tired and had no trusting friends (because it was needed to switch churches to get away from people judging my destructive situation)…….. so one day I said to the Lord I have an excellent counselor but now I need a close friend. Two women’s names came to me. And He actually moved me to go toward the one I knew barely. So I texted her and asked if we could get together for lunch. We met at her house and talked casually for 3 hours. Finally I said I’m in a crisis and I need a friend who will support me and help me to make wise decisions. Her and her husband stood by me fiercely and faithfully. I just think it’s funny to this day how I marched into a strangers house and basically yelled, HELP!!
God provided the trust I needed to believe she would be the right one.
Oh, WOW!! Praise the Lord! We really can trust Him, can’t we? That is so precious.
Robin,
I am so grateful you got the help you needed for yourself. Way to go! Your story is inspiring.
Lori, I’m wondering if you lack information. Have you read any books on emotional abuse??
Lundy Bancroft
Leslie. V.
Cry for Justice
To name a few?
Robin,
I think you are onto it. My mind, emotions and physical health tell me things were oh so wrong. But I do think I lack explanation.
Thank you for the resources.
Lori, I didn’t want to interrupt your conversation with TL– but I know how important it is to get new thinking. My counselor and I had a great conversation today when she asked me when was it– that I could take no more pain from him and my heart closed off to him?? I really needed to think about that. But my answer was- when I received new information. When I had read enough materials to have all my questions answered, I knew I was ready to be done.
Robin,
Thank you for sharing that it was information that caused you to close your heart off to your h.
I think for me, it was when I could no longer envision a future in the way we were living and my reactive abuse was happening more on a daily basis than ever before. I frankly couldn’t stand to be in the same room with h. I know that sounds awful, but it is the truth. The tension in our home was just too great to tolerate any further, but without the “information” as to the “why”, it is so easy for me to think I was overreacting and the one responsible because of my reactive abuse.
Somewhere in my heart I know better and sometimes in my intellect, I get glimpses of knowing better.
From the input of you sisters here today, it sounds like it would help me greatly to become more educated as to identifying what my heart knew was abuse. I can easily identify the neglect, denial and blaming. I just never thought of them as abusive. Much easier to see that yelling and screaming are abusive.
Robin,
“My counselor and I had a great conversation today when she asked me when was it– that I could take no more pain from him and my heart closed off to him?? I really needed to think about that. But my answer was- when I received new information. When I had read enough materials to have all my questions answered, I knew I was ready to be done.”
I received new information yesterday from Diane Langberg’s you tube video on narcissism.
She said in order for professional counselors to identify someone having Narcissistic Personality Disorder, they need to have at lest 5 of the 9 characteristics. From my perspective, my h has 8 of the nine. Diane proceeded to unveil the disorder in an amazing and clarifying way.
She was describing my h to a “T”. I mean to a “T”. The one thing my h doesn’t have is that character that when he walks into a room, everyone notices. Somewhere I heard the term “covert NPD”. That makes sense. He is under the radar and his “humble” persona is key in his NPD. No One would think h thinks grandiose thoughts of himself. His “service” of others is the other “key” to how he stays unseen in his disorder. Everyone benefits from his sacrificial giving. It has confused me also.
Not now. Now that I have a name for it and more importantly, can identify the characteristics at play.
Diane even goes into detail about how it’s victims increase in their desparation to reach the n in his fortified tower. This explains me “abuse” of him in trying to break down his tower door to gain access! (My h is in there! Let h go!)
The fog was soooooo very dense 2 days ago, and today I feel perfectly sane, rational, intelligent, compassionate and fortified. Capable of navigating in narcissistic waters (not looking to, just know I can if necessary) because I have necessary insight into the disorder.
Robin, you were right my dear dear friend. Information has given me the perspective, insight and LANGUAGE to communicate what happened to me my entire life living in systems that were ruled by NPD!.
I see now that although I thought I chose a h who was the opposite of my father (not a drop of alcohol has passed my h lips), I married h because he was the same as my father. Familiar. Who knew there was something more evil than alcoholism? NPD! The common shared disorder of both the major men in my life. (tears)
No more. No more. I have healing to do. I pray for my children that they can experience healing where it is necessary for them to heal as well.
Thank you Robin for encouraging me to get information and for suggesting sources.
Thank you TL for the link to Langbergs teachings.
No wonder I have questioned my sanity amidst such powerfully oppressive systems of narcissism. No wonder my trust is not easily given and when given is wrongly invested.
I have just begun to see the defining of this disorder, but my observations of it all along have been on target. Even in childhood I would not shut my eyes to it. In college, I gave into alcohol and substance abuse to numb the pain of the knowing and not being believed (sufferings of the truth teller). It almost took my life, but God had plans to keep my alive.
Thank you for your care, support, strength and wisdom. Most importantly, your compassion (and that of the women here) has been foundational to me.
Lori, I like that you can see that your tears are your friends. I learned a while back that the tears that are shed when we are really crying are actually carrying chemical toxins out of the body. They are very different chemically from the ordinary tears. So, think of them as flushing out grief and pain, because that is exactly what they are doing. Grief is so unpredictable; it can hit you at the most inopportune times, and you get blindsided. But if you agree with yourself that when you are in a safe place and private, that when it comes you will let it out, that helps so much. You really will get to a point when there are no more tears. And you will feel free.
JoAnn
“the tears that are shed when we are really crying are actually carrying chemical toxins out of the body”.
That is powerful! I do feel relieved and perhaps even a bit cleaner from these types of tears. They are so “dense” for lack of a better term.
“So, think of them as flushing out grief and pain, because that is exactly what they are doing.”
Okay. No more shame with crying then, and no more fear of it. I need this and I will allow myself the healing I need. THANK YOU.
“Grief is so unpredictable; it can hit you at the most inopportune times, and you get blindsided.”
Boy, isn’t that the truth.
“You really will get to a point when there are no more tears. And you will feel free.”
I am going to trust you here JoAnn. You have been right on many occasions and I will have to take this one by faith.
It is humbling and I am so very grateful for the love and care you offer me as well as your wisdom and guidance.
Thank you for taking the time and energy to share with me today. My spirit is lifted and I feel I have some direction to walk in. Time to begin to gather more information.
May the Lord bless you as you continue in your journey with Him also.
Lori, Have you read Leslie’s book, The Emotionally Destructive Marriage? There’s another one by Patricia Evans called The Verbally Abusive Relationship. Robin told us that she got up her courage to do something when she got more information. Perhaps that is what is needed now. Then you will have some definitions and valid points to help you to talk about your experience.
Joann I was trying to remember P. Evans book . Thanks for bringing it up. I remember my first time reading it, and my counselor at that time said if u can relate to anything let me know. My response was this book IS MY LIFE! Really helped me to define the abuse in my home.
JoAnn,
I must have missed this yesterday: “Robin told us that she got up her courage to do something when she got more information. Perhaps that is what is needed now. Then you will have some definitions and valid points to help you to talk about your experience.”
Okay, I am going to check into those resources and begin getting a vocabulary so I can talk about my experiences. I see that I need to be empowered in my understanding, transformed by the renewing of my mind.
Thank you JoAnn for your care and support.
Lori, I just want u to know I relate completely to how you feel. The first time my counselor used the word ‘abuse’ I thought, that’s inappropriate. It took me a long time before I understood. And I want you to know we all struggle with reactive abuse. I still remember the day I threw an iron across the room and meant to hit him with it. Of course it’s not appropriate- but when evil keeps pushing and pushing, those things will happen. I think you are very wise in seeing these as a red flag. I lived separately the last ten years hating his presence. I so get every word you are saying. But God does have a plan for us !!!!!
Robin,
Thanks for telling me more of your story. It is helping me so very much.
I hope you don’t mind that this found my funny bone:
“I still remember the day I threw an iron across the room and meant to hit him with it.”
How liberating to me to hear you say: “Of course it’s not appropriate- but when evil keeps pushing and pushing, those things will happen.”
And how freeing to me that I am not in that environment where evil keeps pushing and pushing.
Robin, thank you for caring and lending your heart and voice to help clear my confusion tonight.
Lori, it is my Joy to share my story. Not all of it is wrapped in a neat little pkg. I still remember the day I told my counselor I had thrown an iron, as I laughed.She said you didn’t mean to hit him? I said oh yes I did.
He had crossed the line, and I lost control. I know God wants to free us from reactive abuse, but I believe he truly understands the cost to us for not separating, when it’s needed.
Robin,
“He had crossed the line, and I lost control.” You are singing my song. 🙁
No neat package at all. Quite the opposite.
It is so helpful to hear your story and others here as it helps bring to rememberence the “why” we are living separately.
I think it was JoAnn who just recently cracked us up with her statement: “How nice of h to remind you of h manipulative ways” I don’t even remember what that was about, but perhaps I see a pattern here! (Aly!!!)
I get foggy and wonder if I am making the situation larger than it really is, then h does something to remind me that it is what I thought it was.
I think I prefer the “reminder” direction you ladies are proposing here of P. Doyle videos, P. Evans book, Leslies books etc, rather than the behaviors of my h reminding me of the “why”.
Yep. I do.
Thank you Robin
Hi Lori and Robin,
It’s so nice to read your interactions. I just wanted to share something quickly here. It’s still hard for me to see my h’s mindset and behaviour as abusive. There is NOTHING overt about his manipulative/ controlling ways. But the tension that ensues can be overwhelming. The ‘invisibility’ of it all is crazy making.
When I feel ‘fuzzy’ in my head, I watch Patrick Doyle videos, they really help to clarify my mind. Leslie’s book ( emotionally destructive marriage ) too, is a gem.
Hi Lori,
I’m hoping that a new day has brought you renewed hope and strength…and all the tears got some toxins out!
I was thinking about a couple of things that confused me for a long time. Maybe you will relate and it might be of some help:
If I would go to my h. to confront an offense, he would often defend himself by pointing out my bad behavior/reactive abuse, and saying that we are both sinners, both at fault, etc. And I could see that this was true; it was an effective argument to shut me up and keep me from confronting. He would also say that we both loved the Lord and have good intentions; that we “are both good-hearted people” that sometimes sin. Well, I had to accept that it was true, otherwise I was questioning his commitment to Christ, and judging his heart. That was so confusing to me.
It took me a long time to figure out and admit that I had a soft heart toward God and others, and he did not. If he hurt someone’s feelings, etc., it never seemed to disturb him at all. He only ever cared about being right. His words were claiming one thing, but his behavior was saying something else. To further compound the confusion, when someone is habitually, repeatedly sinning against you and doesn’t seem to care and won’t take responsibility, what happens to you? Your heart begins to harden against them in an attempt to protect yourself. Because you have a heart for God, you notice this about yourself, and you think, “Well, how can I fault him for having a hard-heart–look at me!?” But I began to see that he was always investing in one thing: his ego, pride, rightness, before God and others. I was investing in connection and relationships, with God and others. It seemed judgmental and self-serving to come to the conclusion that “No; we don’t both have well-intentioned hearts. Only one of us does.” But I finally figured that out and faced the ugly truth of it.
I hope that makes sense and perhaps it sheds some light on your dynamics? Your reactive abuse is a last-ditch, poorly chosen effort to protect yourself from an unsafe person. Can you see that that is not what his abuse was? I think that may be the difference: there was an initiator of pain and abuse, and a responder/victim who sometimes (often, even) lashed out in reaction. (Sin…but it doesn’t make you equal in culpability in your dynamics with each other, or before God.)
Nancy,
Thank you for sharing: “It’s still hard for me to see my h’s mindset and behaviour as abusive. There is NOTHING overt about his manipulative/ controlling ways. But the tension that ensues can be overwhelming. The ‘invisibility’ of it all is crazy making.”
No kidding. The “invisibility” of it is what is so difficult to deal with. Definitely has the effect of making me wonder if it is all in MY head.
I am sorry you have had this kind of personal experience to deal with as well in your life. Seems to be the common thread we all share.
I hope it is of some encouragement to you to know that in your sharing, it has served to help me very much today Nancy.
Thank you for taking the time and effort. I am feeling not so alone, and much more understood.
TL, I love what you said to Lori. I loved every single word. Very eloquently said. Thank you.
Thank you, Robin.
Robin,
“I love what you said to Lori. I loved every single word. Very eloquently said.”
Me too!
So grateful for this wisdom, support, clarity and strength. TL, now I get to tell you that God did not waste the years you spent in your marriage. Jewels are shining and such a blessing.
Thank you for sharing!
TL,
I have copy/pasted your message to me as I believe I will need to hear that again, and again. Especially the part about the level playing field your h attempted to create regarding your shared “good intentions”. EXACTLY!
My h seems to have no experience or practice in the most essential (I believe) practice of the Christian faith. Confession, brokenness and true repentance. I would say to him, “the word is clear that we are to rend our hearts and not our garments”.
It was a language h didn’t seem to understand, nor desire to learn.
Apparently I was supposed to learn HIS religion, which seemed to go something like: We are no longer the old person, but the new, the one made in Gods image, therefore we are dead to sin. There’s no having to deal with sin anymore, Christ already dealt sin the death blow.
You said it so clearly TL.
This is one post I will be reading often.
Also, the fog of crazy making, an example to share is this: Yesterday I received an email from h that said this:
Lori,
I know that you’ve emailed me (our sons) address in the past but I can’t seem to find it. Would you mind emailing it again? Thanks! I really would appreciate it! (son is off to college and has made several attempts to let his father know he wants no relationship with him until he lets him know differently).
Something didn’t seem right in my heart about this request but I couldn’t put a finger on it until this a.m. It is this statement:
“I know that you’ve emailed me (our sons) address in the past”
I feel fairly certain that I have NOT emailed our sons address to h. I have been telling h that I am not the mediator between h and h children.
I almost just automatically, dutifully sent h our sons address. Why doesn’t h just ask h son? (Because son is not responding to his fathers attempted correspondence.)
It infuriates me to see the attempted manipulation of me to get something h wants. “I know” you have supplied it, so it should be no trouble to supply it “again”. NO! I am NOT crazy, and I DID NOT supply it. (Here is where if we were in person, I may call him a name)
Since I didn’t respond yesterday, I awoke to this email from h:
“I’m just checking to see if you happened to have gotten my email about (sons) address at (college). I thought that I had it but evidently I don’t. I’d sure appreciate it if you could share it with me. Thanks! Have a great evening!
Hmmmmmm….he said that differently. Is it my imagination?
I have no plans of sharing sons address with h. I will not be manipulated in this way.
I would appreciate some thoughts on how to decline h request.
I am thinking I would say “I think if you want our sons address, that you should ask him for it.”
Whenever I decline or say “no” to h, there is ALWAYS a price to pay. I may not remember why I am being punished, but I will be punished somehow. Even if it is just that h salutations disappear “Have a great evening!”
To displease h by taking care of myself, or honoring my children’s preferences is like poking the tiger. It has been so much easier just to appease him.
No more.
Dear Lori,
I am so glad it was helpful.
What you are saying and feeling about what your h. did last night makes perfect sense. You are not crazy. I think it’s really kind of our Father to allow that to happen last night…just as the enemy was blowing in the fog, our Father blew it away by this timing of your husband’s email!
I like what you are thinking of saying. I think you should be perfectly direct, clear and honest. Maybe, “I got your email, but I won’t be sending you his address. You’ll have to ask him for it. If you did and he hasn’t given it to you, then I would assume he doesn’t want to share it with you.”
So glad to see your strength and clarity returning, sister! xo
TL,
I used your words exactly to respond to h email request.
Here is his reply: “Okay, thanks for letting me know. I appreciate that you got back to me.”
I think I would be fine with the first sentence, however it is in the second sentence where I wonder if I am reading into things too deeply.
I hear (although it is clearly not stated), “It is your job to respond when I have a request of you. I have a right to be upset if you don’t”.
I remember there are times I don’t want to respond to his initiations. I want to simply ignore the request, especially if I am feeling manipulated. I have told the kids they don’t need to respond unless they want to.
H has expressed extreme dissatisfaction in the past in regard to not receiving responses when he has initiated. He feels entitled to a response and calls it a common courtesy.
Any ideas here?
Hi Lori,
It could be manipulation. Or it could just be a statement of focusing on appreciating what he can (you didn’t send him the address, so he can’t thank you for that.) Whether he was manipulating or not, you were triggered…you are left wondering and annoyed, and that is because of his past similar behaviors…and that’s part of reaping what he has sewn. That’s the fallout he has to deal with.
Generally speaking, it is courteous to “get back to someone.” But he has damaged the relationship to such an extent that normal courtesy may not be appropriate for you or your children. You and your children are free to choose what is appropriate and healthy regarding interacting or NOT interacting with an unhealthy person. You are not obligated to respond.
I am sure he feels entitled. You just need to keep sending clear, strong messages that you do not agree with that entitlement. Sometimes that might be with very clear, strong, direct speech. Sometimes it might be by choosing to ignore him completely. You are becoming a person who cannot be manipulated; who has insight into such tactics, resists or demolishes them, and makes choices based on your own needs or wants–not his.
You are awesome, Lori. I’m so glad I get to know you!
Lori, if your children have told their dad something over and over, it’s time to do NC (no contact). He wants to reel them in to keep contact with him SO THAT HE CAN KEEP HURTING THEM. Think of bullies on the playground, or siblings who taunt each other. They don’t care how they have to do it, they just keep making connection. It actually gives them a ‘high’, and adrenaline shot, to hurt someone who wants their love. It is an actual physical addiction. One night when I told my 1st h to stop haranguing me because I knew he would only stop when I cried or got sick (then he was kind to me), he said, “Connie, don’t you know that if I can make you sick or cry, it makes a man of me?” Then he rolled over and went to sleep. Me? I quickly wrote that in my journal because I knew he’d never admit he said it. I know that even now, if he can get me on the phone, he immediately starts in again…..20 years later…….and if I hang up on him, he calls our 2nd son and whines that I was rude to him. Then the son emails the rest and goes on and on about my pride and disrespect of their poor dad. It’s not called crazy-making for nothing!! I pray every day for the truth to come out and the lies exposed. I don’t know how or when that will happen, but I trust God will bring it about. Meantime, I have told him emails only…….then I have a record of what he said, I can think about a response (or not), and I’m distant enough from the situation that it doesn’t stress me too much.
Lori, one my coolest discoveries this last year has been to find out there are a lot of very nice, kind people in this world. I love knowing that.
My husband mastered hiding parts of his abuse and showing others I was the crazy one. Then I signed up to strengthen my core after reading, studying, and memorizing all Leslie was showing us about how to handle reactive abuse. For quite some time I would take the kids and leave for a weekend or a day–and I found out the Lord will lead me to the people who will honor and respect me, and even help me. But much of it was just learning to enjoy a healthy life without destructive behaviors.
Robin,
I hope to discover some very nice, kind people in person as well. I believe they exist, but something keeps me from the “discovery”. I have heard it said here that narcissists sniff out an empath and that you ladies believe I am an empath.
I don’t feel very strong yet to protect myself so I tend to stay secluded or distanced from people. At least a safe enough distance away that I can disengage or get out quickly if needed. I always have my own car/keys etc. if I go anywhere with others.
This blog community is helping to restore my faith in people.
“the Lord will lead me to the people who will honor and respect me, and even help me.”
Thanks for this.
“But much of it was just learning to enjoy a healthy life without destructive behaviors.”
Yes. Nice to see the possibility of this as I hear your story, and I so appreciate your sharing of it. All.
T.L.
Exactly! You have such a good way of articulating …what I would call,
False guilt or false shame.
These individuals are so so good at equalizing the sin.. like canceling out wrongs,
This tactic is so that they don’t have to take their own full responsibility part.
The empath, is far more willing to own more that their share of the offense and thus the dynamic gets twisted and upside down again.
Also, T.L thank you for posting the YouTube videos.. I’ve only watched the first one of Diane (oops forgot her last name)
But the last 5 mins about the ‘recovery process of the offender’ and what true beginnings of repentance via the Bible.. look like are strong guide posts and have helped me in my journey!
Many times my h wanted to run his own recovery plan… thankful I didn’t continue to fall for that given our situation …and in many ways this is so essential for full accountability so it can be confusing, but it also has a place and time for that I believe.
Thanks again for sharing so much more that is necessary for our hearts to hear and to heal!
Much care and prayers for protection for you all today💜
Thank you, Aly.
I’m glad you appreciated the Diane Langberg video. I am so impressed with her on so many levels.
You said,
“Many times my h wanted to run his own recovery plan… thankful I didn’t continue to fall for that given our situation”
Mine too. The control of his recovery has just been taken out of his hands by the elders, so I am praying he breaks over that.
Lori,
I can so relate to not knowing how to respond to well let’s say an old tactic with a ‘new fragrance?
I could be wrong entirely but here are my personal thoughts…
The second email was to guilt you into giving a response, they want what they want.
First he wants to feel good by you handing him a crumb.. that gives him the communication hope.
Second , yes he also easily wants the address etc. without having to go to other measures.
I think my response …
Would be (none)…
or if I felt the need to respond..
It would be something like what you commented on above on how this is not your responsibility to be the middle person.
I would also note that it should be such a revelation to him how out of touch he is with his son that he doesn’t have his contact info! This should be tangible evidence to help him in his recovery work and is a blessing for him if he is willing to look at that.
And it shouldn’t come as a surprise that his son is upset by this relationship status.
Just some thoughts…
Hi Aly,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.
“The second email was to guilt you into giving a response”
Yes, that is the effect it had on me. I just don’t understand “guilting” people.???? What the heck?
Oh!!!! I see: “they want what they want”
I hate having to understand their way of thinking, but I see it is necessary to be able to respond with a different “fragrance”.
As to “responding”, I copy/pasted TL’s response as it was honest, clear and one of strength. The strength part is new to me and I am sure h will see it as new also. I have been clear, honest and repetitive with the message that I am not the mediator for his relationship with children. He just doesn’t back down from it. I think the strong words are what I have needed.
“I would also note that it should be such a revelation to him how out of touch he is with his son that he doesn’t have his contact info! This should be tangible evidence to help him in his recovery work and is a blessing for him if he is willing to look at that.
And it shouldn’t come as a surprise that his son is upset by this relationship status.”
I would agree with you, but I do not think h will receive any revelation from this. I think h will blame me (and son) for not supplying the thing h says h wants.
H has already received “tangible” evidence from our son. Our son texted him that he wasn’t interested in a personal relationship at this time. Requested his father not contact him, yet that message seems to be lost on his father.
Our daughter continues to affirm that she doesn’t want him attending her athletic events, but every single time there is an event, he asks…and asks…and asks… She resents that he requires her to tell him over and over and over again, how she does not want her father in her life. She says she knows that it only serves to make him feel like she is hurting him.
Also, Aly, h recently sent 2 LONG letters to our daughters (18, 15) that were full of how they were supposed to reach out and trust him again…how could he work on becoming a better father if they didn’t trust him enough to tell him what his effect on them was…he even went so far as to provide a “formula” of interaction that they could use to relate to him. He really seems to think the problem lies outside of himself and with myself and his children. I believe he thinks I have brainwashed them, (and I have wondered that myself). I really believe he never created a relationship with them and now that he is physically separated from them, he is desperately trying to regain some kind of control or some sense of normalcy. It doesn’t appear to be having the impact of self examination I think is essential to creating relationship where none exists.
I believe he has a similar letter prepared for his son.
Our son has a very tender heart and it grieves me to see how it has hardened off, yet I know it is for his own protection. He does not want his father to come watch him play college baseball, yet he says he feels obligated as this may be the only time his father gets to see him play. He told his sisters that, (not me) so I don’t feel I can speak to that in his life, although I would want to.
I hate how he tries to manipulate and blame my children. I mean, I really hate it! They have very tender hearts and are loving and caring with each other. I hate how he tries to make them responsible for the lack of relationship when it is clear it is his fault that nothing was ever built with them, and now, he wants to make them responsible to build it.
Wow….that was necessary to unload and clearly state.
FOG yesterday, CLEAR today!
Sheeeesh…..
Lori, so glad for your clarity today. No, you haven’t brainwashed your kids; they simply smart kids who learned who he was by watching how he treated their mother.
I love how you allow your kids to express themselves and feel what they feel, and you validate their observations. That isn’t brainwashing, its healthy. You are doing such a good job.
Lori, I believe you’re right on time and exactly where you’re suppose to be. Lundy Bancroft shows women how to step out and learn to love yourself again. I’m not saying it’s easy- but I received good things right away by making an effort. I traveled an hour to a new church just because I needed comfort and newness. There’s a lot of mini steps the Lord will walk u thru, when and as you’re ready!!!
Robin,
It amazes me how you and others here say EXACTLY what I need to hear:
” I believe you’re right on time and exactly where you’re suppose to be.”
I needed to hear it is okay to be where I am at right now. (tears) I am perpetually looking for what I am not doing right yet, or where I am slacking on getting to the next step. Phew.
And: “There’s a lot of mini steps the Lord will walk u thru, when and as you’re ready!!!”
Mini-steps….as I am ready…..healing words of rest and gentleness. (more tears)
I am hearing there needs to be a balance in the recovery, a sustainability. A little here, a little there. This is such a reassuring message to do my part, yes, but to take it gently and as I am ready.
Robin. THANK YOU.
Lori,
So glad that you are feeling clearer today;) and that you are learning it is possible to find safe mutual people out there, but I also hear your heart and I would feel similar to keeping a safe proximity.
It’s a process and different for all, your embracing yourself and being kind to your heart, which is what you need.
I think it’s positive that you are receiving feedback and you are able to ‘try on’ different places and find what you need in the time you need it…, this will give you more clarity about you and will empower you in a healthy way.
I wrote:
“The second email was to guilt you into giving a response”
You wrote:
“Yes, that is the effect it had on me. I just don’t understand “guilting” people.???? What the heck?”
My response.. it worked so well for them at one point.
You wrote;
Oh!!!! I see: “they want what they want”
“I hate having to understand their way of thinking, but I see it is necessary to be able to respond with a different “fragrance”.”
I agree to here, personally for me it helped me not buy into them thinking like or how I might. It helped me see clearly where I needed to grow, not to make them (all bad in my mind) but to see reality that they are ‘not safe’.
You may not need that for you;) during your journey.
For me it brought healing and grace to my heart because I was so blinded to thinking that they meant well truly.
Personally your h has a dangerous wired in belief about sin on the eternal calendar. He seems based on your previous writings that he is even misusing grace in its context. But then again the misusing and being ‘irresponsible’ is a pattern.
I so glad your feeling clarity and strength in your journey because there will probably be a long road of these interactions from time to time.
One of my close girlfriends reminds me..
‘Go grab your broken record message’
Stay sane and safe hugs to you all! 🤗
Aly,
Not sure what you mean here: “I agree to here, personally for me it helped me not buy into them thinking like or how I might.”?
Thanks for this: “It helped me see clearly where I needed to grow, not to make them (all bad in my mind) but to see reality that they are ‘not safe’.”
And this: “Personally your h has a dangerous wired in belief about sin on the eternal calendar. He seems based on your previous writings that he is even misusing grace in its context. But then again the misusing and being ‘irresponsible’ is a pattern.”
Also, your comment: “‘Go grab your broken record message’”
has struck a nerve for sure.
I shared with TL how husband responded to my email back to him letting him know I don’t plan to provide sons address. H said: ““Okay, thanks for letting me know. I appreciate that you got back to me.”
Here’s my question. I feel pressured that I HAVE to respond one way or another. Is this true?
It feels to me like he is in control when he feels entitled to a response, especially if I don’t want to have to provide the broken record message yet again. It just seems to validate in his eyes that he is a victim, and I am the mean one.
This may seem like a small thing, however I think it is territory needing defined.
TL!
Another copy/paste. This one might need a frame. 😉 and hung in plain sight!
I just popped over to ask Aly the same question.
Soooo grateful for wise and strong counsel.
“Generally speaking, it is courteous to “get back to someone.” But he has damaged the relationship to such an extent that normal courtesy may not be appropriate for you or your children. You and your children are free to choose what is appropriate and healthy regarding interacting or NOT interacting with an unhealthy person. You are not obligated to respond.”
He seems to believe we are still in the “generally speaking, socially courteous” category, but we are not.
Thank you again for your friendship TL. I am blessed to get to know you as well. You have given me so much to grab on to.
Much love to you and prayers our Lord continue to strengthen and guide you in your own journey.
Lori,
Sorry for my confusing on this.. below I’ll try to clarify.
From my first response..
you have the freedom to not respond at all. Sometimes that it best and sometimes there are times where you should for your own healing to remain consistent.
I agree so very strongly to what TL wrote about how this is not a healthy aquaintence courtesy relationship… his reaping.
I wrote:
“I agree to here, personally for me it helped me not buy into them thinking like or how I might.”?
Sorry for my missing words😜
What I was trying to express was for me it was helpful to understand how (this individual thought) because my natural mutual Place of respect was nowhere .. in place of the kind of person I was dealing with.
It was helpful for me to respond to this person. Let’s say h … so that I could not be easily manipulated but also not loose my valuable strengths that the Lord was equipping me with.
My reality was ‘this actually person thinks this way’ that is why I see all the entitlement, attitude, expectation unequal partnership etc..
I was never naturally going to think like this person so for me..
and this was part of my journey it helped me to see why this person thought the way they did
So I could have a healthy response, or not a response at times.
Hope that is clearer.. if it’s not I’ll reread and see what I could rewrite.. to make sense of;)
Hi Aly,
Thanks for clarifying. I get you now. Such an unequal playing field. I can see the value in learning the game plays of the other team.
Glad to have this wise community to help give insight and provide guidance.
It is invaluable to me and you each offer such a different way of sharing. Very enriching.
Thank you Aly.,
Thank you, Lori! 😊 It feels so good to be helpful, doesn’t it? And we are all helping each other. I know we all have that sense of “If God can use what I have learned to help pull another up another step: awesome!” That’s redeeming the pain.
I have told “my people” that my husband has 2 stances: Superiority, and victim. He has to be seen as The Important Person in every context: The Pastor, The Teacher, The Father, The Intelligent One, The Authority. And if he loses that status for any reason, in anyone’s eyes, then he is the victim. He cannot stomach being a peer, and equal, just one person with something to contribute. He’s being mistreated if he isn’t getting the status he believes he is entitled to. So sad.
No idea if any of that resonates with you in your experience with your husband playing the victim…
Oh, It resonates with me! You are so right! Superiority or Victim. Both are sure signs to me that my husband is still in denial about his problematic behavior.
Before I met other women who were living with abusive partners I thought my husband was so unique. I spent so much times listening to what upset him and how I was responsible to give him my full attention at any and every time. On, and on his stories and rants continued for years and years. I thought he has such a complicated case that I patiently waited as year after year we tried various counselors whom might finally understand and fix him.
Alas, what I have learned is that he is no different than all the other destructive men. His tricks are not so special or different. In fact he fits many common descriptions of found in abusive men. He behavior is typical and common. I just didn’t know that.
TL,
I am beginning to think I really don’t know this man at all. This man I have called my h for 30 years. I am beginning to think I have believed who he says he is.
Being at a distance from him has made this realization more credible.
The more I am apart from him, the more I am afraid of him.
I do relate very well to your description of your h. His identity appears to be wrapped up in “roles”, like my h.
I wanted to ask you your thoughts on this response I was considering sending to h with regard to recent interactions:
” I see my “getting back to you” as a favor that I am not obliged to offer. Especially given that I have repeatedly conveyed to you the message I am not the connection between you and the kids. If in the future, if I decide not to respond to your requests in this area at all, I see that as my legitimate choice to not continue to repeat myself to you.”
Would love some feedback/suggestions as to it’s necessity in saying or it’s improvement in strength. Whatever you might have to offer.
I feel I have asked so much already of you, Robin, Aly and others who have engaged here, but I trust you will know you have freedom to take care of how much you are willing to invest as well.
Lori, my gut reaction is don’t give him that much of your mental energy or time right now. You already were clear. You don’t owe him explanations. I just feel like it gives him too much power over you in terms of time and attention.
Just walk in the truth. Don’t let his “little hooks” catch their bait. Shake it off, step away, and set your mind on things above, and on whatsoever things are good and pure and true, etc.
I know its easier said than done.. But that’s my take on this…
And its a pleasure to help in any way at any time.
TL,
Thank you again. I think you are spot on!
Gonna let it go and go enjoy the day now with my precious, deserving of love and attention daughters. 🙂
Got a smile on my face and a bit of a spring in my step.
Thank you dear friend.
Good, Lori! So healthy!
By the way, just read your message to Connie. Maybe some would differ, but I agree with your choice to stay in order to protect your children from sexual abuse in the family! The custody dilemma is very real, and I believe you made the wise choice. I love that you had the strength to stand up for your children against him and his family 15 years ago! That’s awesome, Lori! Such wisdom, strength, and character.
I love the clarity of your girls, and that they are a strength and joy to you!
Sounds to me like you are doing the best job possible given your circumstances. God’s grace will fill in the gaps. You can rest in Him. He’s got you, Lori.
TL,
“but I agree with your choice to stay in order to protect your children from sexual abuse in the family! The custody dilemma is very real, and I believe you made the wise choice.”
I think it is quite possible that the decision to protect my children back then (it was fierce and had to be persistent) was the point where my h and I definitely came to a “Y” in our road as h and wife. I actually think that I may not have ever had the strength to stand up for myself in the same way I could for my children.
In joining with God to save them from the family systems (on both of our sides), I might have inadvertantly saved myself. I think so.
Now, they are the ones with the clear, true, strong voices that don’t get confused. And when I hear them speak, I am being set free.
They are beautiful to me.
“God’s grace will fill in the gaps. You can rest in Him. He’s got you, Lori.”
Thanks for that TL. Another copy/paste 🙂
Hi Connie,
Thank you for your thoughts and story. :”Lori, if your children have told their dad something over and over, it’s time to do NC (no contact). He wants to reel them in to keep contact with him SO THAT HE CAN KEEP HURTING THEM.”
Yes, I agree. The line I am walking here is in keeping with counsel I received from my lawyer 2 months ago ( I went to explore divorce proceedings).
She told me that with regard to our 15 year old, in our state, in a divorce decree, the 15 year old would likely have to share every other weekend with her father and holiday shared times as well.
The lawyer advised that I not get in the way of husbands attempts to communicate with her. (Our other 3 are no long minors, so no worries). It would be easily conveyed to the court that I was vengeful and attempting to hurt h with control of this important asset. (Not the case I assure you).
The lawyer advised I offer our daughters cell number to her father so it would show my fostering of their relationship. The lawyer also noted that it was a huge telling to know that h has not had contact with her much at all since the separation and didn’t even know what her cell # was even though she had it for 4 years.
It goes against every thing in my mother nature to release that # to him to relate directly with her. Her responses have been candid, honest and all “no’s”. He is angry with her for sure and doing everything he can to make her feel responsible to reach out to him. I am very affirming of her responses (not coaching her what to say, but asking her if she felt safe with h, what would she say.) Then encourage her to protect her heart in the telling and just say what she feels is safe. Mostly it is not much more than “no”, when it is absolutely necessary.
She already does not respond to the majority of his contacts, and she knows that is okay not to.
So hard when dealing with a minor child. It may be a large part of why it took me so long to separate. I was convinced I could protect them better by not having the courts order weekend visitations where their father could take them back to his family of origin where sexual abuse still happens and is covered up.
I stood my ground on this one years ago. (15), when I learned of what was happening at that home.
I refused to ever go over there again, until his family dealt honestly and responsibly with the secret.
I told my h that if he intended to fight me on it, it would take place in a custody battle in court. He didn’t fight me in court, but he fought me for sure. I think this is a big factor in why he seems to hate me. I don’t care. My children have been kept safe from that place.
At any rate, lawyer told me the best strategical move is to kick the divorce can down the road as long as I could until the custody of my daughter is no longer an issue. The longer the better. ( I will be revisiting the lawyer this fall when daughter turns 16.)
Maybe I was right to stay and protect my children after all. I think so.
Pretty soon, I will have my full chance at freedom also, and I do so look forward to that. I feel I would like to move a good distance away from him. I would love to take my daughters with me if they want to also. Start a new life somewhere away from this community.
Meantime, I will be looking to get stronger and more clear myself. My daughters seem to see very clearly, and don’t buy into any guilt at all. They help me a lot in this area just by their honest overt responses to his contacts. It is so very telling.
Phew….
Thanks for you thoughts and perspectives Connie.
Lori, I didn’t mean to come across as telling you what you have to do. I’m sorry that it came across that way. You’re right, you need to do what God is telling you and take into consideration everything that is going on with your daughter and all that. I so remember all those things going around in my head and I still wonder what went on when they were with him. But after 25 years I just couldn’t do it anymore.
I get so frustrated reading these stories and wishing I could help. But you don’t need to explain why you are doing what you are. I do get that each situation is unique even when there are so many similarities. Please know I’m praying for everyone here, and send you blessings.
Connie,
“I didn’t mean to come across as telling you what you have to do. I’m sorry that it came across that way.”
No worries Connie, I heard your concern for children coming through loud and clear and was in agreement that they are the #1 priority.
I figured if you knew more of the story, you may feel more at ease, that they are my #1 priority as well.
“I get so frustrated reading these stories and wishing I could help.”
I believe you Connie and took your comments in that spirit.
” Please know I’m praying for everyone here, and send you blessings.”
This is such a blessing to know that your are praying. Thank you Connie!
HI to Everyone,
I do think that it is hard to know what is going on in the mind of men like your husbands….especially from the narcissistic ones. I watched the video that someone posted (sorry, I forgot who put that on there) by Diane Langberg about the narcissistic personality. These people, mostly men, cannot allow themselves to admit to wrong doing. They must be in control, and will do whatever it takes to maintain that control. Sisters, at the risk of getting into too much doctrine here, what I am seeing here is the difference between knowing about Christ and living Christ. To say that now that we are saved, we can’t sin anymore, is to deny that sin still does dwell in us. We need to exercise our spirit to live Christ, day by day and hour by hour. In Acts 23:1 and 24:16, Paul testifies that he always exercised to have a good conscience before God. That means that if we don’t, then the default is that we sin. So there is a line between those who daily exercise to live Christ and those who just rest on the fact that they are saved but don’t practice the Christian life. This is the line that exists between you and your husbands who continue to sin against you. I believe that it is good and right for you to maintain that line to protect your health: body, soul and spirit. Paul charged Timothy to “exercise yourself unto godliness.” (1 Tim $:7) That’s what these men are forgetting, and they have to answer to the Lord for that.
Sorry, that’s 1 Timothy 4:7.
Lori, I’m glad you’re getting good counsel and new info to consider. I hope u aren’t overwhelmed. If it gets to be too much to take in, just let us know. We love you and your tender heart, but wouldn’t want to wear you out……..
Robin,
Thank you for your sensitivity to my “pace”. I think I have seen where you were sensitive to pace with another here in this community, and I do think it is an important sensitivity.
I do appreciate your thoughtfulness in this regard and can tell you that I know it was I who reached out to all of you during this time and feel that your responses are such an incredible show of support, encouragement, references etc. etc. and where it is overwhelming, I copy/paste to a file for my reference down the road. I don’t want to miss anything you wonderfully wise women have to share.
I feel like a starving woman at a banquet feast, so yes, at times it is too much, but I am storing for a time when I might not have access to such wisdom and counsel.
I don’t know how this community was developed, or how I stumbled upon it, but I know the goodness of my God in His blessing me in it. Richest of provisions and abundant in its amount.
What a miracle in my life as I know now that I am not alone and don’t have to do this alone anymore. (tears of gratitude and relief).
Thank you Robin
Hi Lori,
Your clarity on this is amazing. I love the way you affirm your daughter and validate her feelings. Just a thought: what if, when you get communication from your h, you approach it as though he were talking to your daughter? In other words ask yourself the questions you would ask her when she receives messages from him. Give yourself the permission and freedom you give to her.
Not sure if this idea has some traps – just ‘thinking out loud here’. It seems to me that you are more compassionate with others, than with yourself (probably most of us here as this way…). Especially where our children are concerned right? Why not ‘parent yourself’ through these tricky interactions?
When I went to a healing retreat for post abortion trauma one of the things I was encouraged to do was write a letter to ‘little Nancy’ – the piece of me that never got fully loved and protected as a child. In it I promised ‘little Nancy’ that I wouldn’t leave her, that I would protect her and love her. This was so healing for me and something I re-read from time to time. When I get triggered I try to remember that little girl who desperately needs to be cared for and protected, loved, seen and held.
This was good for me to remember, I think I’ll re-read it tonight 🙂
Nancy,
Thank you for the idea: ” what if, when you get communication from your h, you approach it as though he were talking to your daughter?”
You might be pleased to know that the thought was placed in my heart by the Lord today. So this, is a confirmation. Pretty much word for word.
Hallelujia! He is using you and answering my/your prayers.
And: “When I get triggered I try to remember that little girl who desperately needs to be cared for and protected, loved, seen and held.”
Beautiful!
Hoping you are taking good care of yourself too Nancy. 🙂
Thank you!
Lori,
Your are very sweet to be so thankful, I’m thankful for you and the healing that Christ brings our hearts in a multiple ways;)
I’m glad ‘with you’ that you are feeling relief in ways and I hope it’s helpful to dialog. I see so many wise perspectives given these dynamics.
At least for me it is and ‘was so necessary’ for me to hear the validation in my process. God was gracious because I was never meant to carry the burden I was trying to. The original people I reached to early on had no interest in helping me learn about what was going on and didn’t want to be ‘inconvenienced’ by something that had nothing to do with them or personal benefit to them., go figure.
Ok so it seems reasonable why I would continue to feel like wow ‘I’m the problem here.’
Early on I learned I needed to take more responsibility than necessary ( my part)
You wrote something interesting re your h and your daughter:
“He is angry with her for sure and doing everything he can to make her feel responsible to reach out to him”
Here’s why your a rockstar mom.. your going to be invaluable by not allowing that message indirectly or directly to get to her..
‘how he can make her feel responsible’ …
~His pattern seems to ‘defer responsibility/ accountability’ to something that is his alone because she is the child not the parent.
I hope your feeling the support from everyone that cares for your heart and can relate to similar paths. I think support is essential as you navigate. And there will be many moments where these won’t always be clear and that’s part of the journey.
But I believe it’s a journey worth taking!
Praying for you sister ~ and skipping too😊
Aly,
I agree with everything you shared. Especially: “I think support is essential as you navigate.”
It has been so very difficult to find that support when this:
“The original people I reached to early on had no interest in helping me learn about what was going on and didn’t want to be ‘inconvenienced’ by something that had nothing to do with them or personal benefit to them., go figure.
Ok so it seems reasonable why I would continue to feel like wow ‘I’m the problem here.’
Early on I learned I needed to take more responsibility than necessary ( my part)” has been much of my same experience.
I have been in prayer and am waiting on the Lord to lead for support. I don’t see any formal counseling in the immediate future yet, but perhaps I need to have a more open mind about that.
I am glad you have your navy seals crew to help you navigate with your h. I do pray that your marriage would be blessed and used for His Kingdom glory!
Lori,
By essential support I was meaning women that can relate and understand the weight of the dynamics. This blog is so very helpful. This part is so healing as we each can embrace ‘our pain’ and only our part of brokenness given the marriage dynamic.
I’m sorry, just didn’t want you to think I was suggesting more professional counseling.., especially given what you have been through.
Aly, my sweet sister in Christ,
Thank you for clarifying what you meant by essential support. I am sorry I automatically assumed you meant formal or professional support. I do think I should be open to the idea, but for now, you are my “people”.
I hope you can feel free to let me know if you do think I need to look harder for support. I don’t want to be a burden to this community.
Lori;)
I’m glad I clarified and no you are ‘never’ a burden.
I’m sure that feels a bit hard to receive at times. I think that this process is a lot of breaking down those false messages and rebuilding healthy ones for our hearts.
Yes, I know we are strangers in ways but in God’s plan we are Not and that’s pretty cool!
The false messages are not anyone’s personal fault it’s how the lense gets shaped ‘early on’ sometimes it gets reinforced in an unhealthy marriage too.
This was my journey.
Like Nancy said and made reference of … take good care of little Lori;)
This is why I so love the Gospel as we get a chance to peer into His lense and see something about ourselves and something that can’t be taken away.
I have been cared for in ways that I didn’t even know I needed! It has helped me be a mother in ways I couldn’t have been. I am forever grateful!
And I love being a mother, just ask my babies;) 😜
Good morning Aly, 🙂
“I think that this process is a lot of breaking down those false messages and rebuilding healthy ones for our hearts.The false messages are not anyone’s personal fault it’s how the lense gets shaped ‘early on’ sometimes it gets reinforced in an unhealthy marriage too. This was my journey.”
Yes, I agree. Mine too. It is a strong thing to have had in common.
I have not at all felt like a burden to the community as the feedback of love and support and “happy you are here” has been such a blessing.
My concern is in the idea that if I don’t get support outside this community, I may lean too heavily here. Somehow, I trust that I have true friends here who will “wound” me faithfully if I need correction.
“Like Nancy said and made reference of … take good care of little Lori;)
This is why I so love the Gospel as we get a chance to peer into His lense and see something about ourselves and something that can’t be taken away.”
Love how you see this and how we can receive a different message and view of ourselves when we look to the Lover of our Souls for our value and worth.
I can say “It is well with my soul” and know it to be true when I stop, take the time to let His love in and believe it with all my heart.
This is the way my hope is kept alive, when it is fully in my Saviors love for me.
Bet you are a wonderful mother Aly! Perhaps our experiences in childhood helped make us more intentional to love in truth and with the “others” best in mind?
Big hug to you today my sister and friend.
Hi Lori ( and sisters 🙂
I’m honoured that The Lord used me to confirm a thought you had about how to care for yourself. What a priveledge.
It’s interesting that the subject was self care and that you – very perceptively- encouraged me to care for myself, too.
We went to our second counselling session yesterday, and it went very well. My struggle is very much to HOLD BACK from doing all the work of the relationship. God is so gracious in His ways. Our counsellor had us do a personality profile and then sent us subsequent info on our specific types. Mine was clear. I knew what I am- in fact I had taken an intensive course on this profiling tool years ago and LOVE applying the theory of this in my relationships etc,.., My h’s came back not as clear and so the counsellor sent him a couple of possibilities and asked my h to read through and see which one was a best fit. Well, as an oversight, he didn’t send him the one type that I believe that my h is. So my h chose one that was a pretty good fit but not quite right on. He ( my h) felt it wasn’t quite right too. The bottom line for me is that I believe that I KNOW which type my h is but because of the counsellor’s oversight, my h didn’t get to choose that option. I SO struggled with this but then realized that this was The Lord’s Gracious way of showing me a number of things:
1) it’s not my job to tell my h’s ‘who he is’. I should not be doing his work for him ( even though this stuff comes so much easier for me and he’s gonna struggle through it). I may be RIGHT ( and I am ! I know that sounds arrogant but that was actually written in my profile, “they are usually right and they know it.!!). But being right isn’t the most important thing. Knowing my limits and my responsibilities is what’s important. HUGE boundary revelation to me. And that inner conflict ( being right versus respect and realizing I’ve gotten those backwards all my life) is humbling too.
2) part of my prayer for this year is that’s The Lord grant me an abundant filling of the Holy Spirit. Well… it doesn’t matter what the paper says my h’s type is, my h is my h, and I need to interact in each moment, led by The Spirit, not from my knowledge of the psychological types.
3) The counsellor may need to know which type my h is ( although it’s not going to be critical because the counsellor works in a Spirit led way) but I am not the counsellor. Again, boundaries.
After talking to me about it last night, my h said he was going to look into the other type options because something didn’t feel right. He’ll only be able to do this on the week end because of work and that if he finds a better fit, he’ll let the counsellor know.
It’s sooooo hard to a) wait for him to do this work and support his good decision to prioritize his provision for our family ( in doing the personal work on the week end), and to b) watch him struggle with what comes so instinctively to me. BUT what is this revealing about me? That I want to ‘save him’ from having to look in the mirror! The very thing that would make our relationship Godly. Talk about shooting myself in the foot! ( interestingly my h started a men’s group and the curriculum they are following is called ‘man in the mirror’)!
God is so gracious in providing the situation, the insight and the strength for me to respect the boundaries of our individual selves.
I see the same Spirit led care provided for us each here, in different ways, through different circumstances. He is leading us each to discover who we are, to care for ourselves and to follow His ways.
“Trust in The Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways submit to Him and He will make your paths straight.”
Ladies, we serve an incredible God and I am priveledge do to get to know Him better by interacting with you all 🙂
Nancy,
What a blessing to hear how the Lord is working on your and h’s behalf in marriage. I am so excited for you both and the testimony that is already being shared. 🙂 Praise the Lord!!!
I also am thanking Him for providing you such clarity of insight as to personal boundaries and giving you the strength to walk in this wisdom. Yes, I bet it is difficult, especially when you know what is right and others haven’t seen it yet. 😉
Love how you said it here:
“God is so gracious in providing the situation, the insight and the strength for me to respect the boundaries of our individual selves.”
And here: “I see the same Spirit led care provided for us each here, in different ways, through different circumstances. He is leading us each to discover who we are, to care for ourselves and to follow His ways.”
When Gods hand is moving and creating, it is Awesome to see.
Praying God continues to uphold an enlighten you today.
Thank you Lori and T.L., for the encouragement 🙂
Gosh, Nancy, I sure enjoyed that peek into what you are learning and the process by which you are learning. Thank you for sharing! As your sister, I feel so excited and joyful to see the insights you are gaining into yourself, and the self-control (a fruit of His Spirit!!) that you are gaining. It’s beautiful! Good job of listening and yielding, Nancy, and good work Holy Spirit! 😁👏💕
Aly, It is easy to see that the Lord has been doing a good work in you, and I praise Him for that. Thank you for ministering to us all by your insight and experience. Your experience of comforting your “little girl” is so helpful. When I did some “inner child” work with my therapist, I was surprised to realize that I had given her the responsibility of holding on to my pain, and for that reason, I didn’t even want to look at her. How freeing it was to relieve her of that responsibility!!
The initial question for this blog was “How do I keep hope alive?” In a sense we have gotten away from that, but really the way we keep hope alive is to continue to move forward, and this blog is helping us all to do that. (Oh, where is dear Rose?)
JoAnn,
Thank you for sharing this:
“When I did some “inner child” work with my therapist, I was surprised to realize that I had given her the responsibility of holding on to my pain, and for that reason, I didn’t even want to look at her. How freeing it was to relieve her of that responsibility!!”
Can you share/remember how you relieved her of that?
JoAnn,
Thank you so much for all of your words and encouragement on here!
I’m thankful for your heart and understanding toward our hearts that are in a healing process.
I believe it’s God’s invaluable way of bring His body together.
Yes it’s been quite the road given my journey… and certainly my h and have a lifetime process of getting to know more and more about each other and most importantly about what God has for us.
I do think the little (inner child) work is pivotal in places. There is still much for me to discover;)
My h certainly had his little person to acknowledge and that was essential because that ‘little one’ kept getting in the way of himself growing/healing…
I guess what I mean by this… is that until he could see his little self and deal appropriately with him…he could never see me or remotely acknowledge my little self either and thus my big self changing. Hopefully that makes sense. But that process for us was where safety began to make a way of embracing one another regardless if the marriage would be restored.
I really appreciate a post you wrote a day or so ago… sometimes these posts come mixed so I’m trying to keep up;)
You wrote:
“So there is a line between those who daily exercise to live Christ and those who just rest on the fact that they are saved but don’t practice the Christian life. This is the line that exists between you and your husbands who continue to sin against you. I believe that it is good and right for you to maintain that line to protect your health: body, soul and spirit.”
This is so well said given the marriage dynamic but also I believe in many relationships.
My h felt early on that the marriage (license so to speak) gave him a license of free reign and no account for behavior.
You wrote:
“those who just rest on the fact that they are saved but don’t practice the Christian life.”
Certainly they are free to walk in this manner.., but what I have found, is that there is not freedom for the other person who wants to practice or apply the Christian principles.
In fact in doing so they are ‘deeply offended’.
And so on as you may see the victim mentality swing. Healthy boundaries feel like being judged and so and so on.
Again thank you for all of your wisdom and care for us!
Yes… haven’t heard from dear Rose 🙏
either unless something isn’t getting posted.
JoAnn
Oops forgot to write this..
PS:
You wrote:
“those who just rest on the fact that they are saved but don’t practice the Christian life.”
I believe that this is epidemic.. (I might generalize as we see a common thread a bit given the gender of many h’s here) in marriages because:
Many ‘rest’ in the fact of the marriage status/legal document (regardless of the condition of it) and miss the practicing of the daily Christian sanctification of the marriage process.
Aly,
Once again, you are such a kind and wise voice and care-er of all the women here; you have such a generous heart.
I relate so well with what you say about your husband’s “little self.” I hope my husband can get beyond his protective walls and let himself go there again…and deal with that hurt and frightened child. Again, it gives hope that your husband was able to. So important to walk in the balance of hoping for his best, but entirely releasing him to his own choices…and those choices will affect the ultimate outcome of our marriage.
JoAnn,
I’d be interested too, like Lori, to know how you took the responsibility from your “inner child’s” care taking. So insightful, by the way that you recognized that you gave her “the responsibility of holding onto my pain”. That’s really big for me, I think, too, because as a child I was the caretaker of my mother’s pain. It makes sense that as I grew up, I just left that little girl back there, ‘holding the generational bag of pain’.
Reading her a letter, out loud in front of witnesses, that I would turn back to her and not leave her behind again was key. You know, I do sometimes still forget about her, that letter wasn’t some magic bullet, but what I just realized in writing this is that it opened a dialogue between ‘us’, and so now I can go back and apologize to her, for turning away.
I know she’ll forgive me because she has the softest heart I know 🙂
Nancy,
“I know she’ll forgive me because she has the softest heart I know.” ❤️ Love this.
Good morning Lori;)
I hope today is a day you are finding a skip~ not just to ‘feel good’ but to feel and find the clarity that is peace to our hearts💖
You wrote:
“My concern is in the idea that if I don’t get support outside this community, I may lean too heavily here. ”
I think this is an important concern, I will pray for your heart in this. I do feel good Godly counsel is a strong root of the tree.
My heart is also sensitive towards your history of counsel, so my prayer is that if you open that door that you will feel more equipped to evaluate the counseling and God will orchestrate that process if you are feeling lead that way.
It could take a few interviews… and I think that’s healthy.
I think a comprehensive approach is healing. Similar to how we read our bibles and lean toward living it out 😊
Thank you for your dear comments about motherhood, I believe and hope that to be some of my parenting experience~ I want to be a blessing for them as they grow up.
I love the privilege and my children are so gracious to my faults. In our home we all have to take personal responsibility, which is the exact opposite from my family of origin…and by God’s grace He continues to bless our relationships within the our home, yes it’s messy emotionally at times (don’t want to give some picket fence visual here) but we are trekking. My children know I’m working on myself to be a parent they each uniquely need…because each of them are designed uniquely;) I want to be there and I’m curious to learn about them as they also discover themselves and their giftings.
We all want to be life long learners~
As I did more of my inner child work the message (little Aly) received was how inconvenient she was to be parented or cared for.. that went along way because I was the one challenging the system (didn’t know it at the time) and the system doesn’t want to be inconvenienced let alone is there room for (other to exist).
Early on I found such differences with my own parenting and my mother’s.
I guess I saw it as more like a sacred responsibility and my mother saw it as a ‘season’ and she was in quite the hurry, sadly.
Plus, she had a hard time being around me ‘parenting’ I think…? I reflected something ‘uncomfortable’
… I have a couple close girlfriends that affirmed this behavior personally and helped me see that my mom struggled being happy for my progress.. because she had to feel grief for her own choices, and losses. She preferred not to feel so I guess that’s why I still experience her as a very preoccupied person~ orbiting around false peace.
I’m sorry to write all that…probably TMI
I do believe God wrote different things on my heart and He was going to guide me to seeing those truths and lead me back to Him.
I see this in your posts as well as you are parenting and navigating;) your children will be blessed!
Not just as your their mother but someday be called ‘friend’ and that is a precious gift to look forward to🌈
Hugs to you my dear sister in Christ 💕
I’m really interested in this, too. I’ve never done and “inner child” work with a therapist. I’ve only had counseling sessions to help me figure things out and navigate, but have not done any therapy.
However, last summer, when I was first separated from my husband, (and experiencing extreme joy in his absence and an increased “felt” presence of the Lord!) there was one Sunday morning when I felt the Holy Spirit, our Counselor, do some “child work” in me. Without me planning to do this, He took me back over my entire life. He showed me that soft-hearted little girl, who was always yearning for truth and God. He showed me myself as I developed; scenes I had not thought about for years, some really sad, some just yearning. And He assured me that He was present, right beside me, every moment: putting the longing for him in my heart, weeping with me when I was mistreated, rejoicing with me when I “found” Jesus, and leading and guiding me. It was like He was assuring and reminding me that I had always belonged to Him, even before I knew Him. And that He was with me now, and always would be. It was so comforting.
Oh, how He loves us! In spite of our husbands’ unwillingness or inability to! How precious each of us is in his sight. His heart and arms wrapped around us.
“The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. “
What a precious experience, T.L.!
T.L., He’s a Wonderful Counsellor, indeed. What a fantastic illustration of the Holy Spirit as Advocate.
Love this! Thanks for sharing 🙂
It’s a precious memory to me; thanks Nancy and JoAnn.
To Nancy and T.L, and anyone else who is interested….I know that some therapists don’t believe in this stuff, but it was real for me, as it was for you. When my counselor first had me visualize my little girl, (I had been badly burned in an accident at age 3 and spent many long months in the hospital and subsequent surgeries) I didn’t want to look at her. When he asked me why, I said it was because she was holding my pain, and I didn’t want to feel that again. In a sense, I had disowned her. Sad. Of course, I realized the injustice of that, so he asked me how I might relieve her of that responsibility. So I imagined that the pain was a big, colorful ball, and she and I tossed it back and forth several times (I realized that she wasn’t always in pain) and when she and I were both ready, we tossed the ball away. After that, I was able to embrace her, thank her for holding the pain for so long, and apologize. The effect was profound, and opened up a lot of opportunities for healing, but I have not had to do more inner child work since then. That allowed me to be comfortable with myself and my history.
I think that many times that inner child gets abandoned or disowned, and the best way to heal that part of out heart is to embrace and comfort her, find out what she is afraid of, and talk to her as if you were talking to a child. It is a sweet time. I believe that this is part of God’s design to make it possible for us to endure pain and suffering: we can compartmentalize the abuse in order to survive. In extreme cases, this leads to Dissociative Identity Disorder (multiple personalities). It was a massage therapist who first described my experience as abuse, and it shocked me that she would call it that, but as I have learned more about the kind of treatments I had to undergo, even though I don’t remember most of it, I do believe that the effect was the same. That little girl endured a lot, and I’m glad that she is healed now. Thank you all for your interest.
JoAnne,
Thank you so much for sharing this part of your story. I was so moved and saddened to think of you badly burned as a 3 year old. I’m so sorry that happened to you.
We are such linear-thinking people in a linear-thinking society that most of us don’t understand that we are still “that little girl” and that the Lord desires to redeem every bit of our lives: past, present and future…to integrate our personalities fully within Himself. He knows we will never leave “our little girl behind.” She is with us, even if we don’t look at her, and she needs healing that she didn’t get at the time, and be integrated into our personality instead of compartmentalized to the past. I’m learning even as I write these words…I think they are true.
Good morning all!! I have been with my counselor over 3 years now, most of it weekly sessions. She is a therapist who works on inner healing. I was confused by the comment this morning- as my therapist does hold my pain at times from childhood abuse. We have worked thru so much because of her holding my pain when I couldn’t bear it. She is a gigantic prayer warrior and serves me consistently in prayer. So I am interested on the comment of relieving her therapist….. it’s confusing for me!!!
Hello Robin,
If you are referring to me reading a letter to ‘ her’, the her in my case was my inner child, ‘little Nancy’mwho Ingad left behind years ago.
Hope that helps
Oops, typos-
…”little Nancy’ who I had left behind years ago.
I think I read your post too quickly Nancy, so I went back and reread them.
Thank you,
Robin
JoAnn,
Thank you for your sharing here. Wow, reading what you experienced and the healing it brought you gives me so much joy for you!
Thank you for sharing (her) and most certainly blessing all of us here that write with such grace and understanding.
💜
Thank you, Aly.
Hello Lori and friends,
I am so sorry I haven’t been in touch. I just started reading the posts this evening. I have to get caught up with everyone. I have been in a very dark place lately. I am very sorry That I wasnt there for my dear friends, who have been so kind and gracious to me. I am having a very difficult time…seems I can’t even help myself, let alone anyone else. Going to read now so I can catch up with everyone.
So good to hear from you, Rose 🙂
Know that many sisters here are praying for you.
Why not come here and allow us to lift you up; and you can soak in His love for you. You know, allowing us to pour into you is a gift to us!
I thank God for you, Rose and am praying that His Light and Love will draw you in, and that He envelops you in His Peace as you take another step toward Healing.
Could that be going to see a doctor for help? Could that be calling a shelter for free counselling? Small steps Rose. He is with you, sister.
Dear Nancy,
I am still weeping over your response to me. “I thank god for you rose”. Nancy, I have NEVER heard those words in my life, and to hear them from someone I dont even know..is the very essence of God’s love. I can’t even put into words how comforting those words felt to read and you go on to say you are praying for me. I cannot fathom anyone caring so much for…me? Just me. It is mind boggling to me. Honestly, I am having bit of a tough time receiving this. I feel unworthy of your prayers, your love and support and your time. I haven’t contributed anything to help another sister here. I have taken…but I have not given back. I wish I had something to offer all of you dear sisters, who have been so kind and compassionate with me. This makes me feel very badly. But I am lost..I just can’t see the road ahead right now. So I’m not really any good to anyone. I’m sorry. That is why I have stayed away. I wish I had a strong support system, as some of my friends do. It makes all the difference. I have two close friends that I talk with, but after awhile…the friends can become exhausted listening. People can only take so much. I understand this. And so, I don’t want to be a burden to anyone else. So I stayed away. But thank you dear Nancy, for reaching out to me. I am sorry I am having such a difficult time receiving truth from my dear friends here. I cannot seem to “put the shovel down” as my friends advised me. i guess in my mind, I have to know that I exhausted every single thing I could before I end my marriage….crying again. I know you all think I’m a fool. I probably am. I asked to come to his apt to talk the other night. I spent a majority of the evening talking about God and how God Must be at the center of this marriage, otherwise it will not succeed. We must put the marriage on the altar (as Patrick Doyle says). Pray and trust God’s timing..not the husband’s timing (wanting affection etc) NOW. He (husband) revealed that he doesn’t read the bible, hasn’t been to church and basically has no interest in reading anything Because “he’s too busy, always working, too tired when he gets home to read, too tired to listen to a podcast or any counsel on his phone while traveling home fm work or at home in the evening..I fall asleep, I have no time….etc etc etc.” That’s a whole lot of excuses. Our counselor (pastor) asked h to join a discipleship group with a few other men. Husband agreed at first, now says “I don’t know if I’m going to go anymore. After all, that particular night is the night I see my daughter”. I was sad and disappointed. I explained that if this marriage is going to be restored, it must start with God. He (husband) must take steps to learn how to become a godly man..then a godly husband and father will follow, as a result. But he must first become a godly man. It seemed evident to me that he was not really interested in what I was saying. It was more of me pushing the issue….like it always is. I told him I wd pray for him and offered to give him a bible and some Christian books I have here at home. Over the past few days, I have sent him scripture verses by text and links to podcasts that I felt wd be helpful. I don’t know if he’s even listening. Why do I do all of this you ask? Because I am trying my best to make him see that GOD is the answer…to help him become a better man and ultimately…become a better husband and father. My friends here probably do not agree with what I’ve done. They may feel It is not my job to do. He must come to Christ on his own. I don’t know what to do anymore. What are your thoughts?
Rose!!!!
You have no idea how grateful I am to see you post again! It has blessed me this morning to know you are still here. You have been prayed for by many here.
You said: “I haven’t contributed anything to help another sister here. I have taken…but I have not given back. I wish I had something to offer all of you dear sisters”
Oh, I know how this feels. We need to believe our sisters here when they tell us it blesses them to bless us. How could we have much to offer when we are broken so?
The women here speak a language I am not all too familiar with. I have learned from them it is called “Love”. The real Love.
Not the love you and I have learned from our families and husbands. Their “love” is not love at all, although they declare it is and how dare we question it.
The differences couldn’t be more stark.
They require on offering from us first in order for us to receive anything from them. (think sheep and shepherd, what shepherd would require anything from his sheep in order to feed them?)
These women here nourish their souls by investing love into our lives. (this is helping me to hear myself say this Rose)
Somehow their investment in our lives makes their love grow.
It is an opposite spirit, an opposite economy that you and I have only “heard” about. But it EXISTS here, and since it does, I now call them my family, my people.
It means the world to me to have connection with people I can love and be loved by (even though the way they love is new to me).
I am just saying that I don’t think anyone here expects you to be able to offer anything of comfort to anyone else.
I believe when they say that they love you. Not for what you can supply, but for who you are Rose. Just for Rose.
They have a lot of love to give and they are willing to share it with you and I. I am going to trust them to know when they are “over-giving” and I hope they will take good care of themselves if they need to dial back their invest in me.
But, I am also going to (work hard and with a deep breath) believe they love me and want to help me.
Holding your hand Rose. Because I need a hand to hold too.
Is that okay with you?
Dear Rose,
You wrote: “I know you all think I’m a fool. I probably am.”
I don’t think anyone here thinks you are a fool. Please listen to what the women here DO think about your situation.
1. Depression has been possibly identified as a medical condition you could get help for. Depression can cloud thinking, cause hopelessness, despair, even suicidal thoughts.
2. Your husbands desire to “change” will never come from any effort on your part. YOU HAVE exhausted (hear that word?) everything on your part to change him. You are behaving “over responsibly” for the marriage and it is clear to me (and others here) that he does not intend to invest at this time. Be respectful of his “No” Rose, and please stop pressuring him. We don’t want to become like our abusers and badger them until they say “yes” and their heart is not in it.
3. I think the energy you are giving to this effort on trying to “save” your marriage (which doesn’t want saving) would be much better (holier) spent on your health. Save Rose. Let Christ give you a hand up. Trust Christ with your h and the state of the marriage.
You wrote: “Why do I do all of this you ask? Because I am trying my best to make him see that GOD is the answer…to help him become a better man and ultimately…become a better husband and father.”
Rose, sister, I spent 30 years of my life because I believed this way.
Please, stop. Really stop. It is not YOUR job to make him anything.
The more you try, the less he tries (or more he resists).
Think with me, how would you feel if he was spending all his energy trying to make you something HE wanted, or thought needed fixing?
Love him enough to accept his choice NOT to seek God, NOT to work on becoming a better man, father, or husband.
Please see that even Christ Himself cannot change him without h cooperation.
What CAN you change Rose?
We are hopeless because we have lived in an environment for so long that hasn’t changed no matter how much energy we give it (prayer, talking, crying, bargaining, shovel after shovel trying to unearth a buried heart) so that we can be happy.
Put it down Rose. Start planting a new garden with your energy. Plant for you, and watch hope return.
Small steps. Small seeds.
Listen to the ideas here for how women think you could plant and become the WOMAN you can be.
One of the convenient things for me was to work on my h so much that I didn’t have to be responsible for me. But Christ gave ME “talents” to use. He is going to reward me based on how responsible I was for them.
I hope this is not overwhelming to hear, but as long as your hope is in your effort to make your h a better person, you placed your happiness outside of your self and with the decisions of another.
Good steps might be:
1. Get to a doctor for depression.
2. Find a womens support group in your area (or stay in touch here)
3. Make a choice to nurture YOU today. Respect your h enough to honor his “no”. (put it down Rose, let it go. Really, are you more capable than Christ in accessing your h heart?)
Let’s you and I start becoming the person WE were meant to be. THAT is something we have responsibility and control over. As long as we continue to effort in the dark place of changing h, we will be depressed, confused, hopeless etc.
Praying God’s richest blessing for you Rose. Cheering for you for sure. You are precious and so very valuable to Jesus, and to us here.
Lori,
Your tender wisdom, insight, and practical advice to Rose are so, so amazing. Beautiful. <3
Dear Rose, I too am praying for you. I was thinking of a reply, and then saw what Lori wrote, and I can’t add anything to that besides an Amen. 🙂
Here is an example of what she was saying: My daughter, being home-educated, as a teen kept resisting what I asked her to do in the line of schoolwork. It was like the proverbial pulling teeth to get her to do much of anything. She was a nice kid, helpful in other ways, but balking at the school stuff. One day I prayed, and then I made a list, gave it to her, and said,”This is what you need to do to graduate from this school. Then you may leave home to do what you want to do with your life. If it takes you until you’re 30, well, I like your company, so then you can hang around for many years yet. If it takes a year, then you’re free to do whatever in a year. I don’t care at all what you decide, it’s up to you.” She was done in 6 months!!! Without anymore of my pushing and pleading and cajoling. Whew!! What a burden off me to throw that ball in her court. That was a big lesson for me in all of life. And Rose, you could use one less ball in your court, especially the huge one you’ve been carrying of your h’s responsibility before God.
I’m just reading, “Beyond Boundaries” and he talks of that in there, and about the grieving of a relationship, which I’m not sure I’ve done properly, but it’s a natural and necessary step for all of us here. Let us sisters carry you for a time, and then you’ll be strong enough to give again. You have nothing left to give just now. Be blessed and hugged from afar. We love you!!! You are lovable!!!!!!!!!
Connie, that’s brilliant!
Dear Rose,
My heart is so full of love and support for you. No one here thinks you a fool. We all think that you are in a very difficult situation and process that we ourselves went through and/or are going through. It takes a long time to come to terms with things as they are, rather than as we wished and hoped they’d be. For some of us (like me) it took over 30 years to accept reality and begin to deal with it, and to understand that I must change my focus from “helping” –read: “changing” my husband, to changing myself.
Once we begin to face it, we begin a real grieving process…denial, anger, bargaining, depression (not necessarily in that order) and then finally acceptance.
The theological questions are sometimes the worst aspect. The things we believe are what we have believed for many years. For me, it was helpful to take a step back from “the letter of the law,” i.e. what the Bible text says, and think about the nature and character of God: He is “compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love.” He is so committed to our good and our freedom that He sent His son to secure it. We see all through the Old and New Testaments that He HATES oppression and the abuse of power. So if that is his very nature and character, perhaps I have been misunderstanding His Word? Because the way I was understanding His Word was dishonoring His heart and character. I don’t have all the answers but I know His heart…it is for you, Rose. You are His beloved. You are most precious to Him.
I hope you will stay connected here, because we love you…because He first loved us…and that love He has been pouring into us is overflowing to you…it’s from Him.
I hope you will soak up all the words that have been written to you by dear Aly, Lori, and Connie, Nancy and others. It is the Lord’s love, seeping out, reaching out to you: the body of Christ seeking to heal itself.
Dear Nancy,
Sorry..my last post was very lengthy. I just have one final thought..I know my desire is to have a godly marriage. That is my ultimate dream. However, if my h is not a believer (although he claims to be in front of the cousenlors and pastors) scripture says “I am to stay with the ubelieving husband if he consents to live with me. He is sanctified through the believing wife”. Where does this leave me? it clearly states that I am to stay in the marriage, even with an unbeliever, knowing that that marriage will not be a godly one. It can’t be..what does darkness have to do with the light? The things of the Lord are spiritually discerned…by believers. The h and I are so far apart.
Rose,
My heart goes out to you and none of us want to overwhelm you here.. so feel free to read what you can.
Your words describe such a spiritual battle going on in your heart and I can relate to the questioning and confusing spiritual questions you have posted. I hope many can chime in here given our experiences with these dilemmas.
You wrote:
“However, if my h is not a believer (although he claims to be in front of the cousenlors and pastors) scripture says “I am to stay with the ubelieving husband if he consents to live with me. He is sanctified through the believing wife”. Where does this leave me? it clearly states that I am to stay in the marriage, even with an unbeliever, knowing that that marriage will not be a godly one. It can’t be..what does darkness have to do with the light? The things of the Lord are spiritually discerned…by believers. The h and I are so far apart.”
Rose, you stated that your h is a Professing believer.
I believe as a helpmate we are called to be light even in dim marital places.
None of us can judge the heart and declare if a person is an unbeliever, I believe as Christians we are called to treat and love them ‘as a believer’ that they profess they are.
Maybe some here would disagree with me, and that’s ok but I do feel that many women in this situation easily get pulled into having to orbit around the (professing believer even though he is quite lost and quite far from wanting to follow God). How is this going to impact and or grow your spiritual life? Are you called to follow someone not following the Lord?
Rose, many of us have been or are right where you are in similar heart places so we understand the fear, the pain and the utter sorrow.
However, we also want you to experience the love God has just for you!
As you begin to live your life and filling it with healthy loving people, activities and time spent just with God… you most likely start to see all of what God wants to bless you with now and for your future. He will bring His light and healing into dark places💖
You are worthy of love and care;) it’s good to be held and told things that our hearts need to hear.
Aly,
I love your tenderness and clarity together in what you shared with Rose. What a powerful combination.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insights with us in such a loving way.
Rose,
There are many here praying for you and want to offer support and encouragement;)
I’m sorry it’s hard to take in that there are people (you don’t know in person) that care for you and want to bring God’s love to your heart. 💗
Sometimes the loneliest place in the world isn’t being alone… it’s being surrounded by the wrong people. I have personally experienced this feeling.
I’m so very sorry for your position and what you are experiencing with your h.
It’s so painful and it’s not something that anyone would expect you to endure on your own.
I can relate personally to many of things you wrote, so your most certainly not alone. I do think it’s possible your carrying your h’s shame and I would want you free of that, I as I believe that would be God’s desire too!
Many of the truths about a (h) becoming a Godly man, husband and father are in my perspective and what I read biblically are accurate in so many levels.
The things you are asking for and pointing out are valid and ‘not unreasonable’ especially given the trust he has broken. It’s hard when we don’t feel the energy or the confidence to know what next steps to take.
I believe many here can relate to what you are going through in the most darkest of places.
I believe your heart is for God’s best in this situation and you desire a healthy marriage and that is a blessing God is giving you.
During many of my difficult choices I struggled choosing God over my h… it was heart wrenching ( my h had some many good things)
The more I leaned toward Christ and others to reinforce His message for my heart and my value my decisions became clear but never felt natural.
I’m glad that your seeing Patrick Doyle’s videos and seeing how healthy boundaries are beneficial to both parties and can give the greatest chance of any hope~ if there is ‘real hope’ of a change in course.
From your comments, your husband is showing you he has no desire to get spiritually fed for his heart. This is painful! He seems to think that it’s not necessary for his character and that is again him thinking he knows what’s best for him and thus for you and your family.
Regardless if your husband sees your worth and value, God does! He desires you and wants to love you!
You are precious in His heart.
C.S. Lewis has a powerful quote;
“A woman’s heart should be so close to God a man should have to chase Him to find her.”
Praying for your heart today and that you may feel heard and cared for.
Lori,
Yes I so agree with you and how good that video is that TL shared.
Granted I’ve done my long exhausted search trying to make any sense of the ‘system’ an it can be so validating and healing to get that perspective.
I’m in prayer for you and your tears will be healing as you walk yourself and your children out of this;)
The Lord will heal you and will set you free every step of the grief process. As you know you are not alone and you are so precious to be seen and heard.
You wrote;
“The common shared disorder of both the major men in my life. (tears)
This is SO true to a tee..
When I finally broke from my family origin system it was validating to see the common traits with these two:
Most non recoveringAddicts and NPd ~ (protect supply at any costs)
You wrote:
“No more. No more. I have healing to do. I pray for my children that they can experience healing where it is necessary for them to heal as well.”
Yes be so tender to yourself as you are healing and I hope you can feel me cheering you on!!
I’m thankful you have allowed any of us to love on you with our words and our care💕
Lori, I’m glad you have received information needed. My recommendation would be consider a private counselor just for you. It’s amazing how having an intimate safe relationship can change our lives. If you’re not ready – no prob. God knows and He will bring the right one in as you are ready to accept it. FYI- my husband also fit 8 out of 9 on that quiz . Red flag, red flag!!!!
Robin,
Thank you for your recommendation of a private counselor “just for me”. That sounds terrifying to me. Being honest here.
I know how it has been such a blessing to you and how you so want me to be blessed and I believe that done properly, it would be an AWESOME blessing, so I am definitely open to the idea.
But I want you to know it feels like I am edging ever closer to the edge of a high high cliff and the waves are crashing on the rocks below.
Thank you for your concern and care. It blesses me so. I am praying about the counselor idea.
May I ask what a session costs for you?
“my husband also fit 8 out of 9 on that quiz .”
Mind boggling really isn’t it? That we survived.
I love you Robin and appreciate your heart and care.
Aly,
I feel hugged by your words of encouragement. 🙂 Thank you. It means a lot to me Aly.
“common traits with these two:
Most non recovering Addicts and NPd ~ (protect supply at any costs)”
Wow. Sooooo clarifying. I had no idea the 2 were identical in this way. Thus, my lack of insight into marrying the same man (NPD) as my father (Alcoholic/NPD).
I feel so sane without question for the first time in my life. I get it now.
I am certain there is more to discover, but I am now not sick due to my hope having been deferred to my h “getting it”.
I get it. That is all that matters for my healing at this point. I get it.
I still pray (probably more effectively now) for h and fathers healing, but not out of my own personal desperation for it. It is out of my hope for Gods will now.
<3
T.L.
Goodness, thank you so much for all of your postings, your video links (wonderful) and mostly your care for each of us in different places with similar wounds.
We care for you too!
I will continue to pray for God’s will in your husband’s journey. God is taking good care of your heart and your clarity it is so evident and it blesses us all.
Yes, the ‘little self’ as noted is critical given the hope for a marriage to survive and thrive. The attachment work is hard but profound in connecting some of those dots (some serious landmines too)
~I’m thankful to God for the guided steps and yes ‘serious cliff jumping’ at times for myself … where I found myself wrapped in His arms. Regardless is my h was going to claim his blessing… he wasn’t going to stop me from claiming my own!
I’m so very blessed by your past words to my heart given my situation with my own mom. It’s still very painful as I’m continuing my grief here
(You have no idea… how much your words mean an I’m grateful for you)
I’m praying for them both but the freedom out (of the system) is like coming up for air, floating upon a still body of water and listening to my child’s heartbeat and rythem as they are sound asleep over my heart.
I’m asking the Lord to fill each of you with His profound comfort and you rest in His truths. 🙏
And yes any cliff jumping necessary;)
Lori,
Thank you I feel so much about your writings too! Your care and what you wrote to Rose I hope she’s able to embrace the things you offered in your post.
You know the fear, I think many of us know that fear and how it can certainly keep good things at a distance.
But I’m praying and in God’ will… I can rest in;)
Your words and experiences are invalueable here. Thank you for all of your generosity and especially your courage!
I struggle so much when I see the enemy turn scripture upside down.. you are probably not surprised.
My own mother shares the testimony of exactly the things that (Rose is Pondering) and is faced with the dealings of a professing believer vs the unbeliever.
My mothers testimony frightens me because of how much it can influence other women in church to be tormented in these marriages where they are forced to continue ‘the cycle system’ orbiting around their professing Christian husbands that are clearly duplicit and telling others especially younger new moms and wives that this is being a Godly Christian wife.
I’m struggling with …the possibility of
Publicly sharing my testimony (so far) as my own journey would be far different …biblically too.
Please pray for me here and I want to be lead and take the steps He calls me to.
Oh Aly,
I will pray for you! “I’m struggling with …the possibility of
Publicly sharing my testimony (so far) as my own journey would be far different …biblically too.
Please pray for me here and I want to be lead and take the steps He calls me to.”
Have you been asked to share somewhere? If so, will there be any other support available where you share (like minded people)?
Also: “I struggle so much when I see the enemy turn scripture upside down.. you are probably not surprised.
My own mother shares the testimony of exactly the things that (Rose is Pondering) and is faced with the dealings of a professing believer vs the unbeliever. ”
I grieve so with you for your mother’s bondage and your pain of not having the relationship you ache for and deserve to have with her. I am sorry Rose. Really sorry. Praying God continue to hold you close to Him here in this place of heartache.
Regarding the twisting of scriptures: The enemy continues to use the word of God to bring about his purposes. He knows how very powerful it is. If he can twist it’s meaning, ie. how he did in the garden, he can bring us under his power and influence.
Regarding the question Rose raised about the scripture instructing a believing spouse to stay with an unbelieving spouse :
There is a difference between an “unbelieving” spouse and an “abusive” spouse. I would agree that it would be obedient to scripture to stay with an unbelieving spouse, but the subtlety the enemy uses here, is he hides this very important difference. The word does not say that we are to stay with an abusive spouse, but and unbelieving spouse. They are most certainly not the same!
Regardless of whether a spouse is believing or unbelieving, if they are abusive, they have violated the marriage covenant to protect. Since the marriage covenant has been destroyed by abuse, (Jesus looks at the heart and spirit of the marriage, not just the letter of the marriage), the covenant has been destroyed by the abuser.
To say that a spouse is required to stay in an abusive relationship goes against my understanding of scripture.
Leslie has provided enough scriptures in past posts to prove this point. Of course there have been those who vehemently disagree (past bloggers and many in churches etc. who are dependent on systems not changing), but Jesus came to separate and separate He did.
Very nice to be traveling this road with wise, discerning, studied and loving women, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
Dear Lori,
I’m having trouble finding your message to me in these comments (sooo many comments!) but I’m sure you’ll see my reply if I write down here.
Lori, my heart broke (and felt anger!) to hear that you have been violated by people you should have been able to trust: teachers in Christian schools, pastors, counselors. How reprehensible.
I think you would LOVE (as I did!) this Diane Langberg video:
http://www.foclonline.org/talk/leadership-power-and-authority-church-and-home
She speaks about the “shepherds who feed off the sheep” spoken about in Ezekiel, and how God says he will rip them away from the wicked shepherds who feed off the sheep instead of feeding them. This would extend not just to pulpit and other ministries, but also to husband’s shepherding of their families.
I am so glad the Lord used Diane Langberg’s Narcissism video to bring further clarity to you. I keep thinking of the Scripture, “The unfolding of your words brings light…” I believe the Lord is unfolding His word to us in ways that are taking away our blindness, dispelling darkness, bringing light and clarity through His truth. I love how we are able to feed, encourage, and help each other.
Another passage(s) that keeps coming to me as I think of all of us here is: remember when Jesus was warning Peter that Peter would deny Him? He said, “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
I’ve been thinking about how many of us in a very real sense denied Jesus for years by making our husband’s an idol: the person we were serving, who had captured our thought life, who we tried to please, or simply spend all of our time, energy, efforts on. (Of course we thought we were serving Christ…but we were actually grieving His heart–and He was grieving over ur self-imposed bondages.)
At the end of the book of John is the story of Peter’s reinstatement by the risen Christ. We see Jesus question Peter, asking him 3 times if he loved him. And then telling him each time he responded, “Feed my sheep.”
So I’ve been pondering how, as we each have stepped out of the weakness and denial and deception we were in, we have been obedient to the call of Jesus, “…and when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers. (sisters!)” And we have been feeding his sheep…each other. I’m seeing that application/correlation in us and it is giving me joy. I believe it is the rejoicing of the Holy Spirit within.
Nowhere have I seen it clearer, firsthand, than in you, Lori. We have all gotten to watch you go from a weakened state to a strengthened state…and then turn around and strengthen your sisters, and feed His sheep, such as Rose. It’s a beautiful thing to behold.
Oh! I love you all so much. I wish we could all gather in one of our living rooms for coffee and prayer! xo
Yes NPD is very sad and destructive, especially in that it is so difficult to penetrate. I see maybe a combination of symptoms of NPD and OCPD (not OCD) in my husband. To know this gives us compassion, but also wisdom. I can feel compassion, even as I make a safety boundary for myself. I also have given a lot of thought to the fact that personality disorders often begin as coping mechanisms to childhood trauma. Those mechanisms were a means of survival for a child. But then they become entrenched sinful pathways…and turn into fortified strongholds. May the Lord demolish those strongholds.
Dear Aly,
Thank you for your response. I am still pondering your question..are you called to follow someone not following the Lord?
That is the conversional question. You will receive many different answers, depending who you ask. The church/pastors will say yes, because you have a convenant with your spouse. Friends may say no. But the bible says yes…for if the unbelieving husband consents to live with his wife, she is not to leave him; for he is sanctified through her. So therefore, God understands this will not result in a godly marriage, yet He stills commands the spouse to stay and remain in the ungodly marriage.???
Am I misinterpreting scripture?
Dera Rose,
I hope you see Lori’s response to Aly above, as sje addresses this issue with great clarity, wisdom, and insight.
Dear Rose,
I hope you see Lori’s response to Aly above, as she addresses this issue with great clarity, wisdom, and insight. ❤️
TL,
Thank you for your post. I plan to respond to you later in more detail. I want to enjoy it tonight when I can focus more on it. Gonna take my time and savor it! 🙂
Dear Aly,
Im sorry, I saw your response to Lori after I typed my question to you. Ok, so scripture instructs us to stay with an unbelieving spouse, however, not an abusive spouse.
Now we have another question…who determines if a spouse is abusive? Of course, the one being abused can justify her argument, but the abuser can say that is not abuse. Who is right? Is it a matter of perception? Who determines “abuse”? Correct me if I am mistaken, but I have not seen the issue of abuse addressed in the bible. More specifically… emotional, mental and/or sexual abuse (as physical abuse is often apparent…there is no question).
Dear Rose,
I hope it’s ok if I jump in here, too. I would encourage you to listen to this Diane Langberg video
http://www.foclonline.org/talk/leadership-power-and-authority-church-and-home
She speaks about the “shepherds who feed off the sheep” spoken about in Ezekiel, and how God says he will rip them away from the wicked shepherds who feed off the sheep instead of feeding them. This would extend not just to pulpit and other ministries, but also to husband’s shepherding of their families.
I think if you listen to Dr. Langberg expound on Ezekiel 34, things will become more clear. An abusive leader (husband, pastor, etc.) is one who feeds off the sheep; uses them for his own gratification and purposes: make himself feel important, make himself feel powerful, make himself look good, etc.
One definition of abuse is one who exerts power and control over another. (Physical, emotional, mental, spiritual, financial)
Also, keep in mind, that when you are in an abusive relationship, whether as an abuser or a victim, you get accustomed to it and it is hard to see it as abuse. Our denial mechanism is very powerful here.
I hope that helps a bit.
T.L.
Just BEAUTIFUL!!
I agree I would be right with you all in the living room~ someday that will be possible!
I’m actually a bit overwhelmed… as the past hour I’ve been studying John 9 and 10
John 10 ~ The Shepherd and His flock
🌈
Just love you all so very much!!
That’s so awesome that you are studying that right now, Aly!
I will be praying for you regarding wisdom and guidance for sharing your testimony publicly. That’s exciting and has a lot of potential to tear down strongholds. I know the Lord will make clear to you when and where. xo
Dear sister Rose,
I know you are writing to Aly here, so I hope it is okay with you if I respond here. I have been thinking about the scripture that you are sharing with us here regarding a believing spouse staying with an unbelieving spouse.
“I am still pondering your question..are you called to follow someone not following the Lord?
That is the conversional question. You will receive many different answers, depending who you ask. The church/pastors will say yes, because you have a convenant with your spouse. Friends may say no. But the bible says yes…for if the unbelieving husband consents to live with his wife, she is not to leave him; for he is sanctified through her. So therefore, God understands this will not result in a godly marriage, yet He stills commands the spouse to stay and remain in the ungodly marriage.???”
I believe there is a clear distinction between an unbelieving spouse and an abusive one. Please see what I wrote to Aly about this distinction. Remember that the enemy can twist scripture in order to keep or put God’s people in bondage.
It does not say a spouse must stay in with an abusive spouse.
I wonder how you would counsel your daughter if she was in the exact marriage you have been in? I do sincerely wonder?
Hi Rose 🙂
I was away all day, I’m reading through and will respond soon .
Nancy
Dear Lori,
Hello my friend! Of course, I welcome your insight and so appreciate your words of wisdom..Im just trying my best to understand God’s Word.
Interesting you should ask me..if it were my daughter, how would I counsel her? A secular counselor actually asked me that same exact question. I was so taken back…I could not even respond to her. I was very disturbed that I felt I would not encourage her to stay in the marriage. Then I say to myself…”but God’s Word says…then…but he’s not treating her as God asks of him…it is a toxic relationship and she must escape..but God says….” This is the conversation that went on in my head for days. As a mother, I dont think I could bear seeing my daughter being tormented and grieved, with no end in sight if she stays in the marriage. How could I support that? But God’s Word says for better or for worse, right? This is really tough one. Still struggling with that question today. Honestly though, I think I might support her in leaving the
marriage, but much earlier on. Not letting it go on for 20 years,
as I have.
Just for the record, ‘For better or worse’ is part of the man-made vows that we are used to hearing at weddings. It is not scripture.
This is a big question, but Barbara Roberts has written a book on it, called, “Not Under Bondage”.
https://notunderbondage.com/products/not-under-bondage
or you can get one used on Amazon.
“Untwisting Scriptures” by Rebecca Davis is another one.
When I left my h 20 years ago, some of the children were very upset, and it seemed I had done them great damage, but in the long run I think staying would have been worse, as I see that the ones who lived with it have poorer relational skills now than the ones who were little and I was able to raise alone.
Remember statistics can be skewed badly. Those statistics take in everyone from all walks of life. I think you would have to deliberately find a set of single parents who are mature Christians and are doing the work of changing themselves vs. the abusive spouse who isn’t doing anything, or is still abusive, to get a fair picture of raising a child in a single parent home. In my case, the children didn’t know how abusive he was because so much of it was sneaky, yet would it have been better for them to lose their mom (I was getting sicker all the time) to death or the hospital and then have only the abusive dad? God can work things out for good, but I don’t think He wants us to deliberately stay in bad situations that we can walk away from. We pray, ‘deliver us from evil’. One good apple doesn’t fix a bunch of rotten ones, but a rotten one spoils the good ones. You teach them how a woman is to be treated.
Ideally, we would be living in Christian community and the ‘elders’ would be on top of what is going on in the families and simply not tolerate abuse. Probably that is why it isn’t even mentioned in the Bible. But in our ‘rugged individualism’ country where cheap grace is taught in churches, we have come so far away from the ideal. I don’t think we should have to walk this path all alone, but it is what it is. When I left h, my doctor said, “That’s why I don’t like Christianity — it’s just men yielding power over women and money”. After my initial surprise, my reply was, “But the whole Bible is all about delivering the oppressed. If men are doing that, they are not following the Bible”. It was the Holy Spirit talking because I’d never thought it out before then, so it was an eye-opener even to me. He thought a minute and then said, “Yes, I’ve read the Bible, and now that you mention it, your’e right.” Think of the terrible testimony it is to the world, when we are pretending our spouses are believers and they treat us so badly……..and the world sees it. Why would they want that? We are to expose evil, not put up with it in the church.
Here is one article by Barbara Roberts, on just what you were saying:
http://www.restoredrelationships.org/news/2016/01/11/domestic-abuse-divorce/
I hope that helps a little……easier than me trying to explain it myself. 🙂
Connie,
I so agree with you that the reason these destructive marriages have been allowed to “thrive” in the church is because people can be fake and anonymous in church today–not so in the early church. It was a radical change of lifestyle, a laying down of all selfishness. These men would not have survived the penetrating eye of godliness that ruled the church.
Also: I have on my calendar to pray for you today, so began to pray yesterday, Please keep us posted.
Dear Lori,
On another note, my daughter is doing a report for school on “the effects of a single parent household” OUCH!
After reading her report, with all the statistics of how children of one parent households are more likely to:
commit suicide
use drugs/alcohol
engage in premarital sex
marry very young
suffer from depression
have low self esteem and self worth
have trouble concentrating, lose focus in school
these are just the top few things children may suffer. The list is quiet extensive. After hearing her report with this statistics, my heart sank. I couldnt help but cry…
WHAT DID I DO TO MY CHILD? I said to myself.
Due to my own selfishness of not wanting to stay in relationship with her father, I brought upon my own child such terrible consequences. Consequences she did not ask for. But my choice to leave has greatly impacted my child in such a negative way. I feel absolutely horrible. I am responsible for this. Now I know what you will most likely say to me…No, your husband is responsible because his behavior caused this outcome. Yes and No. Yes, his behavior is wrong and unacceptable…however, I was the one who choose to leave..not him. I seperated the family, not him. He would have chosen to stay living together.
So the question becomes…which is worse for the children, staying in the home and witnessing their parents unhealthy marriage, or living in a single parent home, with all the after effects.
Rose,
My heart goes out to you as you are pondering your journey. Many of us here did and do not make decisions or healthy boundaries lightly. Not sure if your familiar with some of my journey but my h has a pretty strong opinion on these marital issues given our situation…with ‘ him’ (my h) wanting to be a professing Christian but not wanting to follow the Lord’s heart, nor caring what his impact was on myself or our children at one point in time.
Praise a God this isn’t our path anymore.
I only know a few things that you have shared from your posts about the situation.
You have said your husband is a professing believer, so I’m confused about the ‘unbeliever example’
Can you clarify?
Also I would be curious how you might describe a covenant marriage under God and what the role/covenant of the husband is or has taken? Wife also?
Thank you for having space to dialog and ask questions back and forth~ there are so many women here who understand the pain of what your going through, myself included and I hope you hear my care for you in my writings 😊
Hi Rose,
Your honesty about your difficulty accepting the love here, is amazing. It IS hard to accept Love. It IS. But you are doing it. You know how I know that? You have accepted what Christ did for you. You know what Jesis said in John 6 when his disciples asked him what works they had to do? He said “your work is this: to believe in the one that God has sent”
This has been my hardest lesson this year. Yes, I believe in The Lord Jesus, and that is a gift from God, for sure!That’s the beginning though, the starting point.
But what does it mean to my daily life? It means opening myself to His Love, each day. And that often comes through other believers. This is hard. I agree with you. I struggle too. Like I said that is my hardest lesson this year- accepting His Love. But you are doing it! You are safe now, let your guard down and let the Love in, and let the tears flow.
What strikes me as I write this is that I had my heart guarded backwards. I was guarded against the Lord, and open with my husband- Expecting my husband to fill me up. He had no Love for me, Rose ( even though he insisted he did), It is critical to switch those boundaries around.
Above all else, guard your heart for it is the wellspring of your life ( prov4:23)
Your heart needs to be guarded FOR The Lord to fill up. This is impossible to do if we subject our heart to abuse. That’s why this is a command. That’s why it says ” above all else”
Rose, we have all been where you are. We grieve with you. We pray for you! We lift you up to our most compassionate, Loving God.
Dear Rose,
Your questions, heartaches, self blame, desire to obey scripture, hope to please God, understanding and application of scripture are all very familiar to me. I struggled for 30 years with the EXACT theology.
There came a day in my life that I could physically not bear another day of life in this bondage.
I believe the problem with this thinking you share:
“So the question becomes…which is worse for the children, staying in the home and witnessing their parents unhealthy marriage, or living in a single parent home, with all the after effects.”
is: logically, you haven’t listed the negative effects to your daughter (or any child) that is FORCED to live in the environment of a toxic marriage. What do you think they are?
Maybe ask your daughter (if you haven’t already) how living in the home with your “toxic” marriage has effected her?
Maybe ask her how she feels now that you are not with him? (How long has it been that you have been separated?)
And how would she be if her mother got healthy Rose?
What about the message that she shouldn’t put up with abuse from a h, or anyone else for that matter? Think of it Rose. By staying in the abuse, you are telling her it is Gods will. Is it?
Do you think she would NOT be effected in a similar negative manner as the list she reported children suffer from in single households if you were to stay with your h?
Rose, my children have suffered in the toxic environment of an abusive marriage and they are doing so much better now. They are seeing an example of how to stand against an abusive person and are so grateful to see their mother becoming healthy and happy.
Not all children experience those negative effects of a single household. Mine are healing as I am healing.
Nancy,
Love how you said: “I had my heart guarded backwards. I was guarded against the Lord, and open with my husband- It is critical to switch those boundaries around”.
I agree!
Also:
“Your heart needs to be guarded FOR The Lord to fill up. This is impossible to do if we subject our heart to abuse. That’s why this is a command. That’s why it says ” above all else”
Above ALL else, sounds very important! I want to pay attention to this directive from my Lord.
Thanks Lori.
That proverb has helped me to cling to Christ, as He changed and continues to change my life.
I grew up thinking it was sinful to protect myself. Then I thought it was optional and acceptable to protect myself. What forced me to initiate change was realizing it wasn’t an option- it is a command from The Lord. Wow.
Thanks for the encouragement, Lori 🙂
Nancy,
“I grew up thinking it was sinful to protect myself.”
Me too.
Now I am thinking about how convenient that is for abusers and abusive systems that we think that way or are confused about that. No more.
I would never want my children to believe such things either.
That is really powerful Nancy…I am letting it sink in that “Above all, guard your heart” is a command…a command designed to help us walk in our Father’s desire to protect us and keep us free.
Thank you.
Just to clarify, I don’t think the Lord will be angry at us if we don’t guard our heart ( I do it imperfectly all the time andHe Loves me dearly). It’s necessary if I want to get to know His Love for me, better. It’s necessary if I want to know His character better.
His Love for me doesn’t change. It’s how well I can know Him that will change based on how well I guard my heart.
That’s how I understand that command. It has changed my life 🙂
TL,
“She speaks about the “shepherds who feed off the sheep” spoken about in Ezekiel, and how God says he will rip them away from the wicked shepherds who feed off the sheep instead of feeding them. This would extend not just to pulpit and other ministries, but also to husband’s shepherding of their families.”
This is one of the passages the Lord showed me last year and unpacked the message that we know who the shepherds are serving or governed by, by how they treat the sheep. It was a message that helped me to know my h was feeding off of us. Also, of noteworthy mention, the Lord showed me that because of my h feeding off of me, I was abandoned by h to the systems that fed off me as well. (h led me to my final counselor who ended up abusing me. H left me in counselors hands and didn’t stay for “marriage” counseling.
When my h found out about the counselors abuse of me, he complained that he wasn’t getting his rightful piece of me at home. His anger at the counselor was that the counselor had robbed him of his sexual needs.
It was so very telling to me that my h was not angry with the counselor for harming his wife. Didn’t even seem to occur to him.
These false shepherds are jealous over their food supply, but not zealous to protect what has been entrusted to them. They are lovers of selves, not of God.
“I’ve been thinking about how many of us in a very real sense denied Jesus for years by making our husband’s an idol: the person we were serving, who had captured our thought life, who we tried to please, or simply spend all of our time, energy, efforts on. (Of course we thought we were serving Christ…but we were actually grieving His heart–and He was grieving over our self-imposed bondages.)”
Yes TL. And I know He has grace for us because we THOUGHT we were serving Him. This is a place I am broken in grief over. It is a good thing to be broken in grief about this. I know I am forgiven. Period. Yet I want to remember that I was deceived and complicit in promoting the deception. That is why I can ask another here: “Do you really think you are more capable than God to reach your h heart?” Because I really thought that. No more.
“We have all gotten to watch you go from a weakened state to a strengthened state”
…yes TL! Because my repentant sisters turned and fed me. I learned to feed because I am fed. Much of what I share is from remembering what you and my precious, insightful, compassionate, kind, correcting, loving, sincere and generous sisters have taught me here.
It is glorious to see the giftings of the Spirit at work in and through each of us as we yield to the lover of our Soul and are blessed that He would turn our ashes to beauty. (opposite of Satans work)
What a grand and glorious thing He had in mind for us before we even knew it. I still can’t get over how I stumbled upon this sight. I mean stumbled, or perhaps crawled…(jungle comes to mind) and how the jungle sucks me back sometimes.
I feel so safe in this forum and grounded.
You also said: “I also have given a lot of thought to the fact that personality disorders often begin as coping mechanisms to childhood trauma. Those mechanisms were a means of survival for a child. But then they become entrenched sinful pathways…and turn into fortified strongholds. May the Lord demolish those strongholds.”
Yes, may the Lord demolish those strongholds while I walk around them praying for their destruction. (not inside where the walls would fall on me also).
Your description sounds like me h to a “T”, and I can see where my efforts to demolish the strongholds of his tower only caused him to be more fortified. No more. Prayer will be my weapon and safe boundaries will be my responsibility.
I am glad you mentioned a desire to set together face to face and share more intimately with each other. I have had the same longing.
Blessings and thank you for sharing dear sister TL.
Lori,
So awesome that the Lord showed you the application of this passage to your own situation last year. It is such a good exposé of the heart of a leader.
You said:
“When my h found out about the counselors abuse of me, he complained that he wasn’t getting his rightful piece of me at home. His anger at the counselor was that the counselor had robbed him of his sexual needs.
It was so very telling to me that my h was not angry with the counselor for harming his wife. Didn’t even seem to occur to him.”
This just sickens me to the core, Lori. You must have felt like such an object; such a piece of meat. Can you imagine how God felt about this abuse of His child? May they repent before they have to face Him.
“It is a good thing to be broken in grief about this. I know I am forgiven. Period. Yet I want to remember that I was deceived and complicit in promoting the deception. That is why I can ask another here: “Do you really think you are more capable than God to reach your h heart?” Because I really thought that. No more.”
Yes, Lori. I too feel this grief over my complicity…how my confusion and enablement caused damage to my children and to the the image of Christ and the Church that my marriage was supposed to reflect. And I grieve for the people who believed we were an amazing Christian family, who are now finding out what a sham much of it was. I allowed a false image to thrive. I also walk in forgiveness, but always remembering, in order to guard my heart and life now and in the future.
“…yes TL! Because my repentant sisters turned and fed me. I learned to feed because I am fed. Much of what I share is from remembering what you and my precious, insightful, compassionate, kind, correcting, loving, sincere and generous sisters have taught me here.” –Praise God for His grace flowing through us all and for your soft and hearing heart.
“It is glorious to see the giftings of the Spirit at work in and through each of us as we yield to the lover of our Soul and are blessed that He would turn our ashes to beauty. (opposite of Satans work)” –Amen!!
“Yes, may the Lord demolish those strongholds while I walk around them praying for their destruction. (not inside where the walls would fall on me also).”–Such a great insight, Lori! Thank you.
“Your description sounds like me h to a “T”, and I can see where my efforts to demolish the strongholds of his tower only caused him to be more fortified. No more. Prayer will be my weapon and safe boundaries will be my responsibility.” –So true!!
You are a woman of wisdom, Lori. It’s a pleasure to know you.
Much love.
TL,
Our dialogue: ”
My words: “When my h found out about the counselors abuse of me, he complained that he wasn’t getting his rightful piece of me at home. His anger at the counselor was that the counselor had robbed him of his sexual needs. It was so very telling to me that my h was not angry with the counselor for harming his wife. Didn’t even seem to occur to him.”
Your words: “This just sickens me to the core, Lori. You must have felt like such an object; such a piece of meat. Can you imagine how God felt about this abuse of His child? May they repent before they have to face Him.”
Matthew Henrys words regarding these false shepherds:
“Upon reading the foregoing articles of impeachment drawn up, in God’s name, against the shepherds of Israel, we cannot but look upon the shepherds with a just indignation, and upon the flock with a tender compassion. God, by the prophet, here expresses both in a high degree; and the shepherds are called upon (v. 7, 9) to hear the word of the Lord, to hear this word. Let them hear how little he regards them, who made much of themselves, and how much he regards the flock, which they made nothing of; both will be humbling to them. Those that will not hear the word of the Lord giving them their direction shall be made to hear the word of the Lord reading them their doom. Now see here,
I. How much displeased God is at the shepherds. Their crimes are repeated, v. 8. God’s flock became a prey to the deceivers first that drew them to idolatry, and then to the destroyers that carried them into captivity; and these shepherds took no care to prevent either the one or the other, but were as if there had been no shepherds; and therefore God says (v. 10), and confirms it with an oath (v. 8), I am against the shepherds. They had a commission from God to feed the flock, and made use of this name in what they did, expecting he would stand by them. “No,” says God, “so far from that, I am against them.”
Those will have a great deal to answer for in the judgment-day who take upon them the care of souls and yet take no care of them. Ministers must watch and work as those that must give account, Heb. 13:17. 2. They shall be deprived officio et beneficio—both of the work and of the wages. They shall cease from feeding the flock, that is, from pretending to feed it. Note, It is just with God to take out of men’s hands that power which they have abused and that trust which they have betrayed. But, if this were all their punishment, they could bear it well enough; therefore it is added, “Neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more, for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, which, instead of protecting, they had made a prey of.” Note, Those that are enriching themselves with the spoils of the public cannot expect that they shall always be suffered to do so. Nor will God always permit his people to be trampled upon by those that should support them, but will find a time to deliver them from the shepherds their false friends,(my h) as well as from the lions their open enemies. (Christian counselor who abused me)”
I remember shortly after my separation from h, telling him that God had removed myself, his children and his property from h care because of his betrayal of trust. That God had taken it back from h and had His own plans to Shepherd His sheep. I did not know how true this was.
Matthew Henry: “Though magistrates and ministers fail in doing their part, for the good of the church, yet God will not fail in doing his; he will take the flock into his own hand rather than the church shall come short of any kindness he has designed for it. The under-shepherds may prove careless, but the chief Shepherd neither slumbers nor sleeps. They may be false, but God abides faithful.”
TL, I and my children (Gods sheep) have been taken back under and into the faithful care of the Great and Faithful Shepherd and these are His plans for us:
“God will feed his people as the sheep of his pasture, that had been famished. God will bring the returning captives safely to their own land (v. 13), will feed them upon the mountains of Israel, and that is a good pasture, and a fat pasture (v. 14); there shall their feeding be, and there shall be their fold; and it is a good fold. There God will not only feed them, but cause them to lie down (v. 15), which denotes a comfortable rest after they had tired themselves with their wanderings, and a constant continuing residence; they shall not be driven out again from these green pastures, as they have been, nor shall they be disturbed, but shall lie down in a sweet repose and there shall be none to make them afraid. Ps. 23:2, He makes me to lie down in green pastures. Compare this with the like promise (Jer. 23:3, 4), when God restored them not only to the milk and honey of their own land, to the enjoyment of its fruits, but to the privileges of his sanctuary on Mount Zion, the chief of the mountains of Israel. When they had an altar and a temple again, and the benefit of a settled priesthood, then they were fed in a good pasture.”
3. He will succour those that are hurt, will bind up that which was broken and strengthen that which was sick, will comfort those that mourn in Zion and with Zion. If ministers, who should speak peace to those who are of a sorrowful spirit, neglect their duty, yet the Holy Ghost the Comforter will be faithful to his office. But, as it follows, the fat and the strong shall be destroyed. He that has rest for disquieted saints has terror to speak to presumptuous sinners. As every valley shall be filled, so every mountain and hill shall be brought low, Lu. 3:5.
And this: And this: ” blessings of heaven poured down upon us and the productions of grace brought forth by us, our comfort in God’s favour and God’s glory in our fruit-bearing. The extent of this plenty is very large, to all the places round about my hill; for out of Zion shall go forth the law, shall go forth light to a dark world, and the river that shall water a dry and desert world; all that are in the neighbourhood of Zion shall fare the better for it; and the nearer the church the nearer its God. And, lastly, The effect of this plenty is, I will make them a blessing, eminently and exemplarily blessed, patterns of happiness, Isa. 19:24. Or, They shall be blessings to all about them, diffusively useful. Note, Those that are the blessed of the Lord must study to make themselves blessings to the world. He that is good, let him do good; he that has received the gift, the grace, let him minister the same.”
Wow, Lori. Powerful, comforting, but sobering Truth. Thank you for sharing it. I am enriched and strengthened.
Lori, I never think that others should do just as I do. My counselor has been wise to instruct me in every situation can be different, as the Lord leads each one individually. I understand fear and a need to be safe. It was very difficult for me the first time I walked in her office. I think women who have experienced severe abuse for a long time need a counselor they can trust. I believe the ladies on this blog can be cheerleaders for you, feed you some good resources, and share parts of their stories. But they are NOT experienced in the many things an abuse counselor is. One is a true blue friend and one is a trained therapist with a bag of tools.
I was fortunate, I had both. Faithful friends and an excellent therapist.
Remember when u start thinking about what a counselor costs– we need to pray and ask Jesus to supply what we need. My counselor charges $150.00 for 90 min. But in the beginning my husbands insurance covered these visits and I paid $25.00. When the insurance was no longer covering me she did much to help me. I pay $100.00 2x a month. But I also have a $3000.00 bill that I will pay her back when the retirement pension completes. The longer we were together, the more she saw my abusive life, the more she was willing to help me however she could. She never turned me away, and a wealthy person donates money to her counseling business and she lets me use some of that money, when it’s needed.
I saw my counselor ten years before recently because my two adult daughters were seeing her. I went a couple times but fear kept me from engaging. I very much regret that I didn’t work thru my fears–and commit to counseling ten years prior. It could have saved me from so much grief .
$150.00 for 90 min.
$100.00 for 60 min.
Do you have insurance thru your husband, you could benefit from?
God bless that wonderful counselor!!! And the person who provides “pro bono” funds for people who need it.
Robin,
I do not have insurance from h to benefit from. His employer only covers him. Thus, the rest of us are on a shared Christian health plan that only covers major medical events.
This is a major reason I have not really efforted too much in this arena, but I do agree with you that the Lord is my provider and if it is His will that I go forward in this direction, the money will be provided somehow.
Would you be willing to ask your counselor for a referral (if she happens to have one) to the south of your state?
Perhaps I need to make the call to Patrick Doyles office and request a referral.
What area are you in – Oregon? North, south, what part. I definitely will ask my counselor. I see her this Wednesday.
I mentioned to take it by faith–because there were a lot of circumstances my husband caused, that could have ended my counseling. But obviously God wanted me to stay in counseling, and found a way.
Thru all of the last 3 years trying to get away from my ex husband it was the Lord paving the way, to have needed protection.
I posted this before but never saw it…. you can go to the web site for the American Association of Christian Counselors. There is a directory there of counselors across the country. I first met Leslie there when she gave a keynote address at their annual conference. I was very impressed with her wisdom and balanced view of scripture. That’s how I ended up here.
Robin,
“Thru all of the last 3 years trying to get away from my ex husband it was the Lord paving the way, to have needed protection.”
What did your h do during the past 3 years that you had to “get away” from him?
I called Focus on the Family and they weren’t much help. Nearest counselor they could recommend was 4 hours a way. I would suggest asking a few people maybe on this blog how they found their counselors, and I will talk to mine.
Dear Rose, We have been praying for you! Every sentence that Lori wrote here is worth gold for you. Her message has summed up the concern that ll of us have for you. You often say, “I don’t know what to do,” but I think you really do but don’t want to take the next steps. Think of this: What do you think is going to happen if you really do what everyone here believes…from their experience….that you need to do: let your husband go. Place him into the loving hands of God and let go? What will happen? This is your fear, and you are allowing your fear to dictate your choices. If you let him go, what is the worst that you think could happen? If that does in fact happen, will you still have a way to go on? So many of the women here have already done that and survived, and are doing so much better. They are a testimony of the antidote to your fears. The women here are finding that they are experiencing a life of freedom and hope.
The two “first steps” you need to take are to see a doctor about the depression and get a counselor of your own. The sessions with your pastor seem to be keeping you in confusion and hopelessness. Not helpful.
Rose, the women here care enough for you to speak the truth to you. Embrace our loving care and embrace the truth. God Himself is your Savior and also your husband’s.
Lori,
Glad that Robin can give her counseling experience and that we can pray for you in regards to the sensitive situation….knowing in confidence that the Lord will lead.
I’m struggling writing a bit as I feel similar protests (healthy ones) but protests given the false shepherds in your past experience. So I hope it’s ok that I share some of my experience here.
You wrote:
“Your description sounds like me h to a “T”, and I can see where my efforts to demolish the strongholds of his tower only caused him to be more fortified. No more. Prayer will be my weapon and safe boundaries will be my responsibility.”
I’m not sure I understand how (your efforts can cause more fortification when someone is either in denial or technically in a fortified stance to protect supply)
I say this with care for your precious heart and any misplaced blame or more responsibility. (Certainly not knowing your details but knowing some of the extreme fortified experiences in my own relationships)
I say this because there are many ‘reasonable efforts’ to offer a spouse connection or mutual problem solving.. but their response is Rooted in their own hardness, self protection and pride, its not the exact same as a reactive response or necessary ‘a cause’ based on another’s reasonable attempts to find common ground.
I guess I’m thinking of more like helping the hearts and brains compute given the dynamic here;
To take a reasonable effort to an unreasonable person such as h.., the cause is not because of the reasonable attempt.
Regardless if he is a narc. or whatever.
During my journey, I learned many abusive systems, families are very good at blaming external behavior (such as other) for their own external response when in reality the response was there all along rooted in the internal issues. Sometimes yes long term childhood coping mechanism that are strongholds for them. But yet that still isn’t our responsibility or cause and effect.
~ again I think the scripture of guarding our heart in the way God desires us to, is essential to have our hearts protected but also soft to allow love in and out.
I love how Nancy described what she was protected from and what she adjusted her perspective on given her experience and heart condition.
Just wanted to share about causes and responsibility given these very difficult issues.
Hoping that you hear my heart to weight out where there might be a voice that causes misplaced blame of added responsibility.
Much love and hugs to you today!
Hi Aly,
To what you said here: “I’m not sure I understand how (your efforts can cause more fortification when someone is either in denial or technically in a fortified stance to protect supply)”
I am referring to the link TL supplied here of D. Langberg’s teaching to Christian Counselors with regard to how to not approach a person suffering from NPD.
In it, she describes the NPD as a person with layers and layers of clothing and an outer coat. The more a person confronts an NPD to take the coat off, the more the NPD resists. IF a person manages to get the coat off of an NPD, the NPD quickly goes to find 2 more new coats, not ONE more to replace the loss, but 2!
This has most definitely been my experience with my h. I brought every idea, word, emotion, pleading etc. I could to get through to h. Sometimes (rarely), it appeared as though I was able to get the coat off, but Diane explained that the NPD just pretends the coat is off so the aggressor thinks they have made progress. Then the NPD begins their false words of repentance. Goes and gets more coats (of affirmation, adoration etc. etc.) and his NPD is more fortified than ever.
My exhaustion was simply leading to his fortification. I appreciate your concern for me that I might be blaming myself for this behavior, however, because of Langbergs video, I now see that only an expertly trained professional has a chance to get the NPD to take his own coat off.
Her video only served to set me free of self blame and see the behavior I was efforting at was causing the opposite of my desired impact.
And: “To take a reasonable effort to an unreasonable person such as h.., the cause is not because of the reasonable attempt.”
I agree Aly! 100%
The Lord has set me free not to effort in this way anymore. Praise the Lord!!!
I am to love my neighbor in the way I want to be loved. I want freedom to choose and not be stolen from (my right to a coat if I want it) or be forced to make a decision against my will. So, I will no longer effort to take a reasonable concern to a hardened and unreasonable h. I respect h enough to allow h the freedom that is his to choose. (h feels his coat is his life)
Many times in my 30 years of knowing my h, I saw the Lord visit him and call him to choose REAL/AUTHENTIC life. The Lord was PERFECT in his invitation to h as He offered in His one hand Life. The other hand was extended but empty. Jesus promised h True Life, but h would have to remove his coat and place it in the crucified hand of Christ to receive true life. I watched h refuse Jesus invitation numerous times to my heart ache and grief. I can only imagine what pain it causes our Loving Lord.
Every new day, His mercies are new and it is a new opportunity for H to turn in h coat. But time is ticking and we will not live forever in this place of choosing. I pray with all my heart that my h comes to a place of reasoning with Christ and make the choice to trade his NPD coat in for true life in Christ.
I know I am not to blame for this choosing of my h. I know I am not to blame for attempting in my primitive ways to reach h.
I know this now for the first time in my life due to the knowledge I received via Langbergs videos.
Thank you for your concern Aly. I feel your love and care (protection) for me, and somehow I know that my life is not hanging in the balance as my h is.
I covet your prayers for him.
And: “again I think the scripture of guarding our heart in the way God desires us to, is essential to have our hearts protected but also soft to allow love in and out.”
Now that my heart is guarded from the evil that inhabits the heart of an NPD h, I am letting love in for perhaps the first time in my life here in this community. I have much hope that the Lord will guide me in healthy places of community where I can invest love and be invested in.
Aly, you are one such person I am experiencing this new in/out love relationship.
Thank you
JoAnn,
Thank you for posting and offering such care for us all here;)
I’m thankful you see the confusion and the places of fear (old tapes-poor upside down theology from time to time) that grab so much of our compromises at times.
Thank you for sharing some of your personal story of your past given your marital situation as you can personally relate to us.
Blessings and hugs to you!
Hi Lori, Robin,
I live in an area without Focus counsellors. For the past two years I have done counselling by phone with a counsellor from Focus on the Family.
It was my counsellor who recommended Leslie’s book.
I also saw on a video that Patrick Doyle has a colleague who does phone counselling.
For me the distance was a safe place to start. You could always call, they give one free consult.
Rose,
You write with such clarity of understanding your dilemma. I am amazed at how well you see the situation for what it is! The down side of such clarity might be that the darkness you feel is because there has not been a “change” in your situation.
Since h has not intention of changing:
“These changes are not what he wants. He wants to behave the same way, yet see wife move closer toward him.”
And:
“h is not looking for a godly marriage. That is not important to him.”
Great insight and clarity Rose. I am sorry it is true and can be proven as true by h behavior. Really Rose, so very sorry. Yes, I can understand, I understand the pain of that also. I would rather go through surgery without anesthesia than to be living through this pain. BUT, I am LIVING through it. Through it Rose, as in when we pass through the waters, they will not overcome us. I feel certain if I hadn’t begun the “passing through” of the waters, I would have been overcome for the weight of h oppression.
And: “h is not looking for a godly marriage. That is not important to him. But it is crucial to the wife. Now we have a major problem. Two different goals. Where does that leave them?”
On a football field, it leaves them as opponents.
In the Kingdom of Heaven, it leaves them as enemies.
And: “Wife’s deepest desire is to be in relationship with a godly man”
Rose. I get it. I do! I lived this for 30 years.
I have come to believe this lifestyle is not in keeping with the commands Jesus set out for our and His Kingdom good.
“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.” Luke 10:27
You have said: “Wife’s deepest desire is to be in relationship with a godly man.” referring to your h.
The “desire” is not the wrong thing. The “deepest” is.
Jesus commands that our “deepest” desire belong to God.
So, now it comes down to whom to obey.
And: ” I will never have that godly marriage, so do I remain married to him and accept what he is willing to give, or leave because I wanted more?”
The WONDERFUL thing I have found with my Lord Jesus, is that he died so we could all have the privilege of choosing. So, the choice is yours my dear sister Rose. The important thing to note is that you are free to choose. Your h broke h marriage covenant with you.
I pray you will acknowledge Him in this life and death business of choosing:
“In all of your ways, acknowledge Him and HE will make your paths straight.”
“Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live!” Deuteronomy 30:19
Rose, the worst part about giving my deepest desire to wanting a godly h and a godly marriage is that I didn’t give my deepest longings to Jesus Himself. Now I do. He has never failed me.
I have come to believe that any place or person I long for deeper relationship than with my Jesus, is a place of idolatry for me. Including my love and the important place I give in my heart for my children.
Finally: “This wanting more is going to lead to me being alone. Do you understand?”
I understand that when one has given their whole heart, soul, strength, mind, sexuality and existence to the wanting of relationship with another human being, the thought of being without that human being would clearly make one feel like they would be alone.
However, I have learned to believe that I am NOT alone and WILL NEVER BE alone. In a very REAL and TANGIBLE way, Jesus keeps His promise to me on a DAILY basis Rose.
“Be strong and courageous, and act; do not fear nor be dismayed, for the LORD God, my God, is with you. He will not fail you nor forsake you until all the work for the service of the house of the LORD is finished.” 1 Chronicles 28:20
Your h may not be interested in the Kingdom of God, but I pray that you and I will be.
Blessings and Love to you Rose. Do know that everyone here loves you with Gods Love and Prays for you in your decision.
Oh Lori, I am just rejoicing and praising God for the Truth that is operating in and moving through you! The Spirit of Truth…and He is giving you such beautiful words to express it. So powerful, my friend.
Rose, we love you as a dear sister and are holding your heart in our prayers to our Father.
Strength, peace, grace and courage to you, dear Rose. Xo
Good morning TL,
There is much to give our God thanks for and rejoice in!
“I have broken the bands of their yoke, with which they have been brought and held down under oppression, and have delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them, whence they shall argue, He that has delivered does and will, therefore will we dwell safely.” This is explained, and applied to our gospel-state, Lu. 1:74. That we, being delivered out of the hand of our enemies, might serve him without fear, as those may do that serve him in faith.
I am so incredibly encouraged by Matthew Henry’s full commentary regarding the Ezekial 34 passage on false shepherds. It is lengthy but so very powerful.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/mhcw/ezekiel/34.htm
Lori,
Thank you so much for clarifying and yes those videos were well done!
Thanks again TL for sharing them especially as they pertain to so much of what many of us have experienced here.
They are pivotal especially the ways a npd can use the system.
Which is so typical and personally expected from these disorders. So yes I understand clearly what your efforts mean in this case! And I’m thankful you hear my heart of not wanting you to carry anyone’s false blame another inch. ~ so thank you for seeing my concern there. I do believe time (what’s done over time, not just time) and healthy boundaries reveal so much of a true repentant heart first to the Lord and then to his wife and others.
I love God’s word because he guides us to inspect ‘the fruit’ …
“A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit”.
Matthew 7:18
Much more in that passage but I’m condensing..
I also love Joseph’s story where his family asked for help and forgiveness and he tested their changes hearts/authenticity.. even holding Benjamin for ransom.
Lori I’m so glad you are experiencing love and freedom! I see also from your writings that you can place more objectively and space in these painful circumstances.
I feel that objectivity was something I had to learn and grasp because it was so not in my nature or wired in me from my family of origin.. to not to.
It is such a blessing that we have a resources such as the blog to connect … to walk along side each other and grow & grieve with one another in a nurturing place💖
I am praising God for what He is doing in all of our lives and your words to Rose were well written with wisdom and love!
I pray for her as well as you all, but yes Lori.. I’m skipping today with you!
🌸
Nancy, thanks for sharing your experience with us as it was much better then mine. They would only talk to me twice and then sent an excellent book. They told me they didn’t accept divorce as an option, unless in the case of physical abuse. The counselor they recommended was 4 hours away and didn’t seem like a doable situation for weekly counseling. In my case, I needed safety and protection, my husband is a sociopath and I was dissapointed Focus didn’t try harder to help. But God intervened and sent me to someone an hour away and it all worked out.
Lori, this part of my story is very painful. I did not save my children from the pain of living with an abuser. He was very very manipulative and demanded everyone give him extreme loyalty. That was how my children were raised. So when my eldest daughter and I presented to the court the full story of abuse in our home …….. he raised up and convinced 3 of the children to side with him/ that Mom is lying and manipulative. All thru this situation of him getting 3 of my children to team up with him, had one gross trial after another. Had it not been for a trained therapist- I think my story would have ended up different. My husband was in intense rage, and he was going to do everything possible to kick me to the curb. My counselor won’t take the credit, she says God was in control and leading all of us. She says my situation was very unique and she’s never seen another one like where the victim endures and God moves mtns for her. I won’t go thru the many things that happened, I will just give one. I moved all his things to storage as I didn’t want him to come back to the house. He went to court and got permission to enter incase I was hiding something. We thought he would come alone or bring one friend. But that’s not the thinking of a true Sociopath. His goal was to destroy me and hurt me the very worst he could. He pulled up in 4 vehicles with all 3 children I hadn’t seen in a year and 3 grand babies of which one I had never seen. My counselor advised me not to be alone. I had 5 people in my living room to support me. He banged on the door and was furious because I would not let him in. I told him he could come in with one person.
He refused and angrily raging and saying he’d see me in court. My counselor was on the phone with me all mornings no and the duration of him being here. She never hung up. Needless to say, seeing my precious children and grandchildren coming against me was more then I could handle and I had a nervous breakdown. My counselor made herself available 24 hours a day and my oldest stepped in to nurse me back to health. It took over a year. He went back to court and the judge told him he could take 2 people with him. The thing that we all noticed was he didn’t take anything more out of the house. He was only there to exert POWER OVER ME. I was not there when he came. I have many more stories about his charades, and of which he continued to HAVE TO WIN. My counselor knew how to handle and always at the right moment. I couldn’t imagine going thru this without her training and constant prayers.
Dear Robin,
Along with Lori, my heart is grieving over what you went through with this spiteful, horrid man. Have your relationships with your kids and grands been restored yet?
Praise the Lord for delivering you, providing for you, and fighting for you.
Oh Robin,
Just hearing your story of his extreme violent abuse to you has cause panic in my heart for you. When did this happen to you? Has he been back since? Do you think he will try again to hold power over you?
I am so very grateful you had Gods provision of a trained counselor so available to you during that time. I am also so very sorry (unimaginably so) for the heartbreak you suffer over the loss of your children and grandchildren. I am crying out to the Lord to right this wrong for you and His Kingdom!
Thank you Lori. I hesitated to send this, as I know it’s hard to take in.
It happened 2 years ago . I’ve been in recovery and healing for it, since then and really only been somewhat healthy for last 6 months. He is gone out of my life, never to return. HE HATES ME TERRIBLY FOR LEAVING HIM. He no longer has that power over me.
I actually have empathy for him.He doesn’t know how sick and lost he is. Every other woman in the family lives in denial. My counselor says over and over, what a miracle that I was rescued out of Sociopathy. She said it’s rare women are strong enough to want out. This is why she has asked me to work with abused women with her. She knows I have a Powerful Testimony!!! The 2nd oldest and I email each other- but she’s still stuck in Sociopathy so it’s one step forward and two back. The whole family is very ill and of need for therapy– we just keep praying.
Thank you for your kind words. One more thought- I want you to know my strength is completely in the Lord. He has done impossible things and will continue. My life has become very prosperous- I think because I stood up to the family cycle and never turned back. The harder my husband made it for me, the harder I worked to hear Gods voice. …………
Robin,
I am so very grateful to God for His healing touch and provision in your life. Your story and generous sharing of it give me hope for my own healing. (tears)…
You said: “HE HATES ME TERRIBLY FOR LEAVING HIM. He no longer has that power over me.”
After several years of my reactive abuse of my h, I could no longer live with who I had become. My reactive abuse (and my complicit staying with an NPD) was harming myself and my family.
After 8 months of separation, It baffled me to hear my h say to me: “Thank you for not divorcing me.”
I couldn’t understand why h wouldn’t want a divorce from a destructive marriage.
Now I see it may be because:
1. He still wants power over me and marriage covenant gives him that. (sadly it should not)
2. My reactive abuse didn’t injure him for as long or as deeply as h narcissistic lifestyle wounded me. Simply stated, he wasn’t hurting as much (or for as long) as I was in the marriage.
3. He wants the “covenant” to be kept in place without having to lift a finger to keep it.
It is painful to see that our marriage was not a marriage at all, but a license for the NPD individual to have a legal source of supply. It sickens me at the thought of the truth of this. Sickens me.
I plan on reaching out for a counseling referral as I think I could benefit from some personal nurturing, empowering and strengthening for myself. It has been such a very long road in my life in living my first half with an alcoholic/NPD father and family system and the 2nd half with an NPD husband.
I really do tire so easily emotionally and feel quite vulnerable and frail at times.
Thank you for your story and continued encouragement to get support for myself. I can see where it would be very helpful.
I do love picturing you inhabiting your home as your own and enjoying the sublimity of peace and hope within your borders. Praise God!
Lori, he can’t hold power over me anymore as he lacks the tools to do it. Everything to him was about his precious money and investments. The court ordered me to have half of everything and more. I own our house and the right to stay in it, and it’s completely paid for. He had to buy a new house and he raged over that. He is a miserable man who lives all alone now, and I’m sure the 3 kids see his true colors. That loyalty thing will trip them up for awhile until they are sick and tired.
I am totally free of all anger, hostility, or bitterness. It was a huge fight in the courtroom, with the judge leaning towards my husband. But it’s all over now and I live a beautiful life in Christ.
Robin,
Thank you so much for sharing more of your story. What a powerful testimony!
You are “like a brand plucked from the fire.” Praise God.
We long and pray and look forward to the day when the Lord restores your children to you.
TL,
I am in agreement prayer for the returning of the “scattered sheep” of Robins family to the house of the Lord and in restoration of relationship with their courageous and righteous, God fearing mother.”
Amen, Lori!
Robin,
I’m so sorry for what you went through, that is horrible to experience especially with turning the children. So thankful you had a clinical counselor right there in your midst. Praise God for her and her heart for you;) knowing God placed such an instrument for your freedom.
It’s the sociopath who will always try to discredit the one who gets counseling and help, they are SO threatened when the clinicians intervene or in other words offer any support or validation toward the victims. Their campaigns don’t go very far like they do with other family members.
Praise God for all His provisions and the courage He blessed upon you🌅
Robin,
Praise God for His perfect care of you! So grateful for your gradual healing and powerful testimony of His strength in your life and situation. TL called your h “horrible”, but other not so kind names come to my mind regarding h.
You finished with:
“One more thought- I want you to know my strength is completely in the Lord. He has done impossible things and will continue. My life has become very prosperous- I think because I stood up to the family cycle and never turned back. The harder my husband made it for me, the harder I worked to hear Gods voice. …………”
We are truly sisters in this decision we share. No turning back.
TL – no relationships have not been restored. Unfortunately. But they have a slight crack of a open door.
My counselor says my children are under Stockholm Syndrome. And it will take much prayer to get them released from that.
Robin, TL, Lori;)
You wrote:
“My life has become very prosperous- I think because I stood up to the family cycle and never turned back.”
Praise God for this! I have experienced the same, …it can be hard to describe to outsiders about getting out,
our children are still in our care.. but you can imagine ‘they, the system’ want only the children..
Robin I will be praying for your children’s hearts 💕
Thank you Aly. I went to counseling probly 18 months before I filed for divorce. Before that I wasn’t even allowed to drive out of town, without a good reason so you can imagine when my counseling started strengthening me– he raged. My counselor went to a Counselors Conference and heard Leslie Vernick and was so excited for me to read her book. I remember reading it all in one night it so mesmerized me. I started doing the things I read from Leslie. Speaking up, Standing up, and backing up. All with consequences to give him an opportunity for repentance, which did not come. All the kids felt my counselor was a flake because Dad didn’t like the counsel she was giving. It was then, my oldest said to me, Mom I don’t want to hurt you, but Dad has used the kids daily, working against you. This didn’t just happen, he’s been manipulating the kids with lies. The reason my oldest understood what wS going on was we were both going to the same counselor, who shared information with both so us, to understand the unhealthy family cycle. I did transform very quickly as I heard more Truth, which made the family uncomfortable, of course.
Thank you ladies for your faithfulness in prayers.
It has been a really good feeling, for the last 6 counseling sesssions, my counselor will say, Robin you are really growing. I know what she means is im healing emotionally from all I experienced thru the divorce, and Spiritually I have grown mightily because I have learned how Trustable my God is!!!!!!!!!!
Robin, my heart is shouting hallelujah! 🙏🎉❤️
Robin,
What a powerful testimony. Thank you for sharing it. You are a blessing.
Lori!
You have a gift for articulating deep Truth.
Yes, I know I have been exactly in the position of making my husband my saviour – in idolizing him as well as our marriage.
I remember the day The Lord ‘dethroned’ my husband from my heart. It was Feb. 29 of last year. I had been listening to ‘no longer slaves’ over and over again singing, “I am a child of God!” for a couple of days. My husband and I had a huge fight and that night I sat up writing and writing and writing. I woke up the next morning and knew that I was no longer a slave to his moods, manipulation or control. Soon after my counsellor recommended Leslie’s book, and I went into a time of sleeping on the living room floor, asking for prayer support from friends, getting my own email account so I could be sure of privacy. A month later, I went out to dinner with him and separated, came home and gave him a letter summarizing what I had said at dinner.
The next 10 months The Lord really used to sort me out. When I was scared, I ran to Him, when I was lonely, to my Lord. Then gradually, I learned that even the happy stuff, I ran to Him. The more I did this, the more I realized how I had expected my h to be my Saviour.
And so the passage of “Above all else guard your heart” became clearer and clearer.
I guard it for Him.
He fills me up, then I can Love like Him. Now with my guarded heart, I can Love my h.
Robin,
Wow, I’m so thankful you got the resources and you were able to also have your oldest daughter get help too.
I’m so glad to hear that your experiencing how God has given your path to restored health and healing for your heart.
I will continue to pray for your children & grandchildren to be restored to you.
(In John 13: 8-9
“Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop, a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was down. He who has ears, let him hear.”)
Our counselor(s) were so pivotal in our process as if we didn’t already have enough to navigate. I share this below here…. in case there are others who are dealing with these family members (or h’) trying to control a family system or sabatoge health flowing in….
Oh my! the anger when the system is threatened…
My ‘own father’… tried to convince my husband to discontinue counseling because my husband was ‘changing’ and getting healthier.
He also tried to tell us and other family members how ‘counseling’ is such a terrible epidemic that people get sucked into.. and just find reasons to blame the ‘parents’ etc..
He tried to equate psychotherapy to being secular thinking.
He himself had no clear definition of the word .. as i indeed asked for him to define it.
He also told me to tell our counselor that counselors are just there to break family’s apart, cause divorce etc.
Counselor’s response:
“Yes, I guess I do aid in the break up of unhealthy destructive systems or unions that certainly don’t bring glory to God. ”
Early on in my parents toxic marriage he convinced my mother that she really wasn’t trusting (God) if she thought they needed another person (counseling or pastor) to help them in their marriage. She was given such toxic faith guilt that I believe it sent her into a spiritual abuse belief system.
Scriptures were only used to defend the status quo and lifestyle of the one not wanting to place God as the center, scriptures were never used to assist in developing a way of living.
She has yet to stop orbiting around him, its quite the loss. I’m still praying but she has actually morphed more into ‘his behaviors’ and reactions which is scary because of what Jesus declares in John 12:46.
Given the grief and the pain I can give thanks everyday because the power of Gods word set me free and gave me the courage I needed to not repeat the system. A system where scriptures are turned to keep those in bondage. I know my Lords heart grieves greatly over this!
Praying for His will!
Aly,
I’m so sad to hear that your Dad actually tried to prevent growth and healing in your marriage. And again, so sorry that your mom is stuck, too. How old are your parents? And do you see them much?
I also wanted to ask you how your husband views things now…does he walk in the same clarity you do? Does he feel freedom and joy in the healthier dynamics? Does he ever revert to old patterns? How long has it been since things “turned a corner” for you both?
Thanks for your open heart! Xo
Thank you for sharing Aly. I think it really helps when we are transparent, and share our hard places. I value friendships where I know they understand my hardship. I do miss my children, but I know God has a plan, and I certainly don’t want to get in tje way, so I keep praying.
Aly, I agree with TL, so sad what you’ve been thru. The Lord must have filled you full to be able to work thru all you did with your parents.
Robin,
Thank you for your care. We are in continued prayer for heart change.
And yes you are correct God continues to show us who He is! His faithfulness I rest in and He holds my heart as it grieves. But He delights in the joy and healing in our home;)
Many people in the world don’t have an answer or are looking for one on suffering..
Sure some can answer, sin. (I agree) warfare world (I agree)
My answer might be difficult to understand…
It’s Jesus! Not the original cause but a catalyst of choosing.
Jesus..His truth in love divides people and systems, it also frees the captives and fills their cups overflowing of His love and His purpose. A Shepherd is intimately invested with each individual sheep. He doesn’t lose one of His own!
T.L.
Thank you for your understanding;) It seems you can relate closely in these waters of what many term enmeshment in family systems etc.
Thank you for letting me write some of my experiences it certainly helps me see even more areas of where God lead than I was aware of.
You wrote:
“I’m so sad to hear that your Dad actually tried to prevent growth and healing in your marriage. And again, so sorry that your mom is stuck, too. How old are your parents? And do you see them much?”
Yes, it’s sad… had my h and I not had the counseling help it could have gotten worse or gone underground even more. The counseling actually flushed out more of the obstacle that stood in our way more that we knew.
Parents are in their 60’s and with boundaries we went ‘no contact unless they choose to take ownership’ about 2 years ago.
By ownership I mean recent abusive tactics etc. they protect and defend the family system at all costs. So when I decided to not tolerate anymore sibling emotional abuse coming my way…. that really upset the (family masked image)
You wrote:
“I also wanted to ask you how your husband views things now…does he walk in the same clarity you do? ”
Yes! and probably better clarity at times as he knows in a deeper way the denial and pride mechanisms. In fact he couldn’t believe the same exact thoughts and attitudes were quite identical to his ‘past thinking’ ~ pre interventions. In fact it was something he believed God showed purposefully, so he could get a ‘past look’ at how horrible the behavior actually is. He saw the arrogance, the control, the blame shifting and especially the victim campaign set up against us.
The family system must have a scapegoat in order to stay the same.
Maybe this is off topic: but do you know what really good athletes, professional ones too do?
They have instant replay!
They watch themselves frame by frame to see what was helpful and what needs work.
They are open to feedback and growth in their goals.
You wrote:
“Does he feel freedom and joy in the healthier dynamics?”
Yes, and YES… most of his recovery is in the attachment wounds and addictions that form those addictive controlling mindsets.
He is free and loves the intimacy he can have mostly with God, our marriage and other real men in his life. It’s a ton of work but he’s determined to break the cycle. He knows what to cherish looks like, and I now know what it feels like.
Does he ever revert to old patterns?
Yes this was clear quite while ago. Because what doesn’t get rooted out or resolved … grows back.
But that was a clear sign of more interventions. Praise God! (This process I could write a paper on) we have tools to work through and residuals .. but he still has lots of interventions in place to secure my heart and ability to grow. We have continued counseling (individually and couples). We will for a long time I’m sure..
He is committed to restore all that was taken from me and then some.
We also have been blessed through the years by God continuing to give us ‘a new family’ of support.
You wrote:
” How long has it been since things “turned a corner” for you both?”
Goodness the corner.. there were several corners to discover unfortunately.. he had to face the ‘little person’ with all the coping skills imaginable as you are well educated in. This is a where I needed clear headed objectivity and the clinical person for expertise.
~probably 5 + years ago was his first corner.. then
2 + years ago surrendered wholeheartedly to the process of discovering all the false beliefs that tied him to bondage thinking, which certainly kept God at a distance.
One example being..
him saying to himself..
“My behavior isn’t ‘all’ that bad” dismissing any impact or responsibility on myself or our children.
Hope that answers some questions for you;)
Im thankful that God is keeping you strong T.L. And He will hold your heart!!💜
Wow, Aly! How wonderful that you and your husband have worked through to this point. Praise the Lord!! He really is able to provide the grace, but you both have worked hard to get where you are. I commend you. And by sharing your experience, everyone here is benefitting, too. Thank you for being a part of this.
Dear Aly,
Thank you for the very helpful peek (again!) into your lives and dynamics. with all the interventions, counseling, etc., it has obviously been a lot of work…a LOT of work. Does it feel like heavy lifting work? Does it feel burdensome at times? Or does the freedom and joy it brings make the “work” element pale in comparison?
I’m in my 50’s, husband in early 60’s (close to your parent’s age)…not easy to break such entrenched habits/strongholds. I can really empathize with how difficult it is for your parents to break out of the destructive system. Self-deception is so subtle and powerful. But I am proof that it can be done! Praying for your mama to get sick of the pretense and go for truth and light.
You wrote:
“Yes! and probably better clarity at times as he knows in a deeper way the denial and pride mechanisms. In fact he couldn’t believe the same exact thoughts and attitudes were quite identical to his ‘past thinking’ ~ pre interventions. In fact it was something he believed God showed purposefully, so he could get a ‘past look’ at how horrible the behavior actually is. He saw the arrogance, the control, the blame shifting and especially the victim campaign set up against us.
The family system must have a scapegoat in order to stay the same.”
Ok…some questions: I don’t know what it was that happened regarding your siblings being abusive and your parents sticking up for them/the system, and I don’t want you to have to take the time to explain it. But I have some questions that come out of my past mistakes with my own parents (wanting to protect my kids from non-Christian, addict-family-system influence) and my experience with my own grown children, and their boundary making with us in the past.
Because of my age; I am easily putting myself into the pain your parents must feel at the “no contact,” especially as it applies to grandkids. I did not understand the depth of this pain until I became a grandparent. I am wondering if there can be a way to let them see and enjoy their grandkids in a healthy way? With protective boundaries? Or is that quite impossible for reasons I know nothing about?
Moving on to some other things you wrote: I love the “instant replay” analogy and I would love it if my husband could adopt that stance. No signs of it yet.
Regarding whether your husband has as much clarity into the dynamics as you do, I meant more like clarity into your marital dynamics and himself; i.e.; how reliant is he on you to see unhealthy patterns creep in? Is it always you that catches it, or is he “on it” too?
You wrote:
“Yes, and YES… most of his recovery is in the attachment wounds and addictions that form those addictive controlling mindsets.” Are there specific books or articles or videos that helped him? Or was it more from personal counseling?
“He is free and loves the intimacy he can have mostly with God, our marriage and other real men in his life. It’s a ton of work but he’s determined to break the cycle. He knows what to cherish looks like, and I now know what it feels like.”
That is so wonderful, Aly. I know that lack of intimacy with God is the basis of my husband’s lack in his relationships. How can one give love, when one has not received it from God? He thinks he has, because of his vast “head knowledge” of God. He doesn’t get that there is something he is missing. It is the overflow of intimate love with God that gives us the security and desire to be truly intimate with another. You are cherished by your husband, Aly. Praise God! That gives me great joy–over you both! It is how I feel when I see how my daughters are cherished by their husbands. Such joy to see that they are truly loved.
You said:
“He is committed to restore all that was taken from me and then some.” So great, Aly. Hard to imagine my husband ever gaining such an attitude. (He may not; I know. I’ll be fine either way. I know Who’s “got me.”)
Thank you again for helping me with these insights. Learning and growing daily. I still need to read up on attachment/attachment wounds, addictive controlling mindsets. Any recommendations? ( I’ve gleaned heavily from Leslie, Patrick Doyle, Diane Langberg. And some from Lundy Bancroft and Melody Beattie. I’ve had Pia Mellody recommended, but haven’t read anything from her as yet.)
Dear Rose, I certainly see your dilemma, and I can only repeat what the others have said: Whether you go or stay, the most important thing is to take care of Rose. No one else is going to do it for you, certainly not your husband. (1) Go to a doctor and get some medication for the depression. You will be surprised how different your situation looks when you are not in the darkness of despair. (2) Get out and do something that is just for you, either some volunteer work, or take a class, or just take a long walk in a nice place. (3) Talk to someone at your local women’s shelter, to find a support group or get counseling. (4) Find a women’s Bible study group you can participate in. Those four steps will help to get you on the right track to having a new life, whether your stay in the marriage or not. Since you are so conflicted about whether or not to file for divorce, do these other things and put the divorce issue on the shelf, at least until you get onto some antidepressants. We are all praying for you, Dear Rose, but you are the one who has to take action.
Good morning sisters,
Can I ask for some prayer support please?
Our counsellor gave us homework where we talk about our day while looking into one another’s eyes. Thursday,Friday,Saturday, all went well. We connected. Yesterday our conversation went south fast and I had to stop it. I told him I wasn’t feeling safe.( this was in the morning). At night, he talked a bit, but I found I couldn’t look him in the eyes. I told him, “today was a hard day because I felt intimidated.” He was all concerned until he realized it was him, I felt intimidated of. He told me that he didn’t feel ‘big enough’ to ‘go there’ because I had shut him down earlier.
That was the end of the conversation. Please pray for me. I’m pretty sure that I cannot ‘let this go’ in doing homework by looking him in the eye and talking about my day, this evening. Actually I think the looking in the eye thing is very telling because I couldn’t do it. So, I’ll have to keep telling the truth about how I feel by either saying no more homework because I feel intimidated, which is why I can’t look him in the eye. I’ve written everything down so that when we go in on .thyrsday, I will be clear and there won’t be any ‘rewriting of history’. Me stopping things when I don’t feel safe is what has changed our dynamics over the past 10 months. I don’t care how much he punisheused, manipulated, blameshift S, this is where everything stops. And that has guarded my heart.
It came to a halt last night. Please pray that I would not get sucked in over the next 3 days. Out next appointment is on .thursday.
If you want to make any comments or suggestions, please do.
Hey. Guess what my verse of the day is today?
Prov4:23 above all else guard your heart for it is the wellspring of your life.
Hi Nancy,
I really want to affirm you in your bold walking in truth and honesty. I love that you are refusing to push yourself to “fake-it,” just to complete an assignment, or please your therapist or husband. Bravo!
You are soooo smart for writing it all down–bravo again! You stay strong! Keep walking in the integrity of your “guarded heart” Nancy. You are doing the right thing. You are choosing wisely. Stand strong.
That’s my two-cents. I’m rooting for you, and praying for you! xo
Nancy,
You certainly don’t have to answer but a question came to mind while I read your post. (and yes, praying)
What happened that caused your experience of intimidation?
Also, what does your h mean by: “He told me that he didn’t feel ‘big enough’ to ‘go there’ because I had shut him down earlier.”
Again, don’t have to answer.
I am praying for you and the guarding of your heart as well as your h.
Nancy,
Her h was playing the victim. He was trying to blame her for his bad feelings. As we know men of this type believe they are entitled to adoration at all times, anything less is punishable. The punishment can be overt or covert. The h remembers which strategies worked and he keeps them in his play book for future use.
JoAnn,
Thank you for your understanding and support. Yes! Praise the Lord! He does the equipping and the strength in persevering.
Lots of works but lots of healing💜
Praying for you, Nancy!!!!!
T.L.
Thank you for reading my post. I’m yes an open book and I have been through the ugly too.. this is God’s doing..
Knowing I have a God that ‘sees all’ kept me focused. But mostly, I believe there is power in sharing because the enemy wants things to be dark and us to feel ashamed (for our own behavior and certainly for behavior that it’s ours)
It’s human to want to be accepted, valued .. (liked)
But at the end of the day, God is the one making the final decision of approval and that’s what I believe kept me moving forward, not for our marriage but for how God calls me.
You wrote:
“Does it feel like heavy lifting work? Does it feel burdensome at times? Or does the freedom and joy it brings make the “work” element pale in comparison?”
Simply put, it’s hard and most certainly (not convenient)
~ this is where my h had the most growth..
He had survived life by organizing his life to suit his own feelings/needs.
(Yes self protective mindset)
Here’s an interesting thing.. for my h he was working triple as hard in ‘hiding’ battling for control.. for him he can’t believe the foolishness in how much pride led him to thinking he was so ‘entitled’ not sure if that makes sense because it is work it’s just the ‘right kind of work’!
The Joy! Yes the joy is the best because it is freedom. We know it’s God’s victory overall and we are still working.. but the freedom is nothing compared to the work that is essential for our own hearts for Him.
Personally, I was going to have to do all the work anyways (alone or not) so that I could get healthier and not find myself in another similar pattern.
You wrote:
“I’m in my 50’s, husband in early 60’s (close to your parent’s age)…not easy to break such entrenched habits/strongholds.”
This is not easy, but it’s very possible. I personally think this is where my parents choose to live. Comfort at all costs.
I know that’s not where you are TL, praise God you have gotten out.. many in your place are not even willing to crack the door ~
I don’t think any age or dynamic gives an allowance for any kind of deception.
You wrote;
“I can really empathize with how difficult it is for your parents to break out of the destructive system. Self-deception is so subtle and powerful. But I am proof that it can be done! Praying for your mama to get sick of the pretense and go for truth and light.”
Thank you for your understanding probably both sides of it. I’m so thankful to God that you got sick of being sick!
My mom continued to chose her unhealthy (husband) over being the parent, especially over (now being a friend to adult children)
This is her addiction. She keeps many (other women or marriages) at bay that would reflect any health to keep from being in reality. Everything is private and hidden. She thinks this is how we are to be as Christians.
Oh and we are supposed to be fake chameleons -peace keepers for the sake of Christ.
You wrote:
“Ok…some questions: I don’t know what it was that happened regarding your siblings being abusive and your parents sticking up for them/the system”
My simple answer is this.. people who have an abusive mindset don’t automatically think that sticking up for the abuser is wrong.. especially if they have (no recovery)
The reason I believe this happens is because …
Well there are a few reasons but I’ll express the main one;
‘They think the same way’ no accountability. They cover for one another.. deep shame.
They relate well with all the ways to interact with another person.
You wrote:
“But I have some questions that come out of my past mistakes with my own parents (wanting to protect my kids from non-Christian, addict-family-system influence) and my experience with my own grown children, and their boundary making with us in the past.”
Not sure I understand here.. but I’ll try…
Of course you probably saw lots of things you didn’t want repeat, but maybe that was too difficult in the beginning given the dynamics you were married with?
Is it possible that you thought marrying a man with Christian beliefs meant he would have actions to align?
You wrote:
“Because of my age; I am easily putting myself into the pain your parents must feel at the “no contact,” especially as it applies to grandkids. I did not understand the depth of this pain until I became a grandparent. I am wondering if there can be a way to let them see and enjoy their grandkids in a healthy way?”
There is a way, we asked for an individual relation apart from the entire family system to see if we could get healthier. (This was what offended them!) unhealthy parents~ protect unhealthy adult children that are harming to others. This starting along time ago in developing years and the family system.
My parents have been given the freedom to take full responsibility for their ‘most recent behavior’ and the betrayals .., in order to try again..
They have continued to scapegoat (me) and use the victim stance.
My mother has walked out on two professional counselor’s,(one of her own choosing) not willing to return, because they exposed the duplicity.
She cares more about the fear of her husband, what other aquaintences might think of her… than fearing God.
Because we gave boundaries.. she wanted my hormones checked.
Been there done that, that didn’t work with my h either.
Thank the Lord for strong God fearing professional counselor’s!
You wrote
“Moving on to some other things you wrote: I love the “instant replay”
This I think is good for us all;) as we grow in the Lord and find peace with falling down and getting a chance at responding differently.
My children have given me treasures in giving me their insight of my own behavior. They are gracious and we try to make it a normal place to grow. (Adult or child)
You wrote:
“I meant more like clarity into your marital dynamics and himself; i.e.; how reliant is he on you to see unhealthy patterns creep in? Is it always you that catches it, or is he “on it” too?”
Both of us now;)
In the early stages.. me and the counselor’s observations.
Since he is learning more about his behavior, where it comes from.. how a belief gets wired in ~ he has more ability and space to not just reAct!
It’s a growing process but it’s now a safe place to grow if that makes sense.. and creating the safely was very hard yes!
I wrote:
“Yes, and YES… most of his recovery is in the attachment wounds and addictions that form those addictive controlling mindsets.”
You wrote:
“Are there specific books or articles or videos that helped him? Or was it more from personal counseling?”
ALL of the above and more! He had to turn his life upside down and empty all his counterfeits so their would first be a ‘need’ for God and thus be room for God to have the presence.
Books, yes there are many..
I think ‘How we love’ dives deep into these areas. They do national workshops too.
I think intensives (on intimacy) are very important depending on how entrenched a pattern is.
My h biggest area was men accountability weekly for his process to be responsible for all the emotional abuse he could easily get back into A trained way of thinking pattern.
Digesting God’s word daily- essential
Bible study essential
Podcasts essential
Newlife Tv essential
Other men to embrace him~ essential.
Exercise~ essential
He had several past things to grieve~ essential
You wrote:
“I know that lack of intimacy with God is the basis of my husband’s lack in his relationships. How can one give love, when one has not received it from God? He thinks he has, because of his vast “head knowledge” of God. He doesn’t get that there is something he is missing. It is the overflow of intimate love with God that gives us the security and desire to be truly intimate with another.”
T.L. This is the essential if the essentials… the others help in reinforcing a healthier lense.
Thank you for your joy TL! I trust that you get so much of this and I’m receiving such love from you in this forum. It’s blessing my heart during my parental grief too.
You wrote:
“Hard to imagine my husband ever gaining such an attitude. (He may not; I know. I’ll be fine either way. I know Who’s “got me.”)
You are correct TL, this is what helped me in my strength! I wish my mom had this blessing for her own heart 😢
But I’m grateful you do!!🤗
You wrote:
“Thank you again for helping me with these insights. Learning and growing daily. I still need to read up on attachment/attachment wounds, addictive controlling mindsets. Any recommendations?
Patrick Doyle we are in like minded thinking here, my h has watched many of his too.
For us proper joint profess counsel given these wounds helped significantly~
Because that mindset gets exposed and exposed in the process.
I hope I answered some of your questions and I will remain in prayer for God’s protection and will over this💟
Thank you for answering my questions, Aly, some pretty probing. I’m so glad to hear that you tried so hard with your parents; even to the point of going to counseling together. Sad that they still resisted healthy relationships. But I know there was a time I would have too; and would have stayed loyal to h. …Actually, now that I give it a moment’s thought, that may not be true. Because for years my heart has been weeping under the oppression and injustice. And if someone skilled came along to expose it, I may have been empowered by that. Who knows for sure…
Just praising God that you have begun a new legacy in your own family, with the potential to bless future generations. How beautiful. A warrior woman! How the Lord’s heart must rejoice over His warrior women.
Aly, just curious, you never would have described your husband with a personality disorder, would you? (Like NPD, OCPD, BPD, etc?) Because sometimes I feel like asking you all these questions about how your husband responded, grew, changed etc. may just be my “false hope” trying to squirm back in. Part of my husband’s pathology is superiority (he knows what’s best, knows more, etc.) and so he can’t or won’t trust people. Allowing himself to truly be held accountable and truly submit himself to multiple interventions? That would be a real miracle. I need to remind myself of that to keep my eyes straight ahead and not in the clouds!
To both of you;)
I agree!! Wholeheartedly
The enemy is also about counterfeit ~ he fosters control and the addictions to it.
Lori,
I agree in so many ways what you posted and reposted from Jennifer.
Lots of this applies but not sure of where it does given ‘trama bonds’ and severe sexual trama bonds that were previously posted by Rose. Decisions or rational made from trama don’t always create safety but deeper harm later on.
I believe trama is serious, maybe others have different thoughts to chime in.
I do believe that there are many things to weigh that are on a ‘spectrum’ to consider.
just some thoughts…
Thank you for praying T.L., Robin and Lori,
It does my heart good to know you have prayed 🙂
Lori, it’s really hard to articulate because his abuse is so covert. Which is why I have to rely heavily on my feelings to know when my spirit is in danger. But here it is:
We had a conversation where he asked what I needed, I told him. It was a hard thing I had asked- for him to check his motivation in serving others ( especially at church). He took it in ok. But then silence, I could feel the air shift.
He says, “sorry but my analytical personality is kicking in here, and I just want to move on, and go.” [ note this is very different than stating a need by saying something like, “I’m done talking for now, and need to go.”]
The ‘sorry’ felt strange to me, so I said that, “why are you sorry about that?”
“I’m not sure” he responds.
[ the ‘sorry’ is used A LOT and I know it’s not genuine but can’t figure out why. I know I FEEL it’s putting emotional weight on me but can’t figure out why. If anyone has any ideas please tell me]
I say, “well, I’m sad that you felt you had to apologize for the way you are.”
Silent tension. [maybe because I’m calling out his victim mentality?]
“Well, what are we bringing to church for the pot luck” ( a question he has asked already and knows that I hadn’t yet figured out- and by the way he organizes the pot luck stuff just as much as I do)
So I took a deep breath and closed my eyes.
He gets up and walks away and later comes back, I said, “you left”, “yes, because you closed your eyes and shut me down” ( his favourite blame shift). I waited. He continued, “I felt like when I didn’t perform for you, you shut me down”
I said, ” but you talked about lunch.”
What he said next I can’t remember because his anger escalated, and I cut him off saying that I didn’t feel safe and needed to be left alone. He complied but spent the day going from silently punishing me to regular behaviour.
So, when evening came and he asked me how my day was, I realized I couldn’t look him in the eye. I was surprised to learn it was because I felt intimidated ( I thought in the past I couldn’t look him n the eye because I was angry). I went out on a limb and said it to him. He was concerned until he realized I was talking about him. Then he said he couldn’t go there ( empathize with me- the counsellor had talked to him about empathy) because I had shut him down.
As I write it, it seems ridiculous but it feels to me like I’m having a conversation with a warm open person and suddenly, something shifts and I run into a wall that cannot be taken down from the outside. So I have to retreat.
Dear Nancy,
I’m sorry for what you are going through.. I’m trying to read and catch up on some of what the posts are, I was confused a bit but thanks for writing.
If you are explaining I’m assuming covert behaviors ~ which you are very correct are by the way hard to write out… much is body language in ways and much can be a couple in a dance reaction cycle.
Obviously, writing all this out may seem tedious but Your Counselor will be able to help with his/her expertise for sure;) so keep that handy!
you wrote:
“We had a conversation where he asked what I needed, I told him. It was a hard thing I had asked- for him to check his motivation in serving others ( especially at church). He took it in ok. But then silence, I could feel the air shift”
My only thoughts are..
Did you want an answer?
Did you want him to take it in and think about it deeper and get back with you?
Did you want to talk more about it together jointly? Maybe discover more sorting through (not alone but together)
Is this what you were asking for?, if so I think it’s reasonable.
Also the behaviors you noted of Your h after seem more like avoidance/defensive tactics and the analytical thing.. is a reminder of why someone pushes emotions away..
I’m curious what ‘you think’ his motivations are in serving others at the church are?
Maybe this is valuable space and time you both need for your marriage and family..?
Hi Aly,
Thanks for your questions 🙂
His motives:
Through a tangible experience of my h coming upstairs one morning, laying on the bed, putting his arms around me and saying “I’m sorry I was distant”, then me asking questions. We came to the conclusion together, through exploration ( very unusual because he usually defends against exploring) that what drove him up the stairs to seek closeness was not at all because he was sorry but because he was feeling insecure, and needing physical reassurance. He was flabbergasted by this revelation, turned on his back, then I asked what he needed- a hug, he said. So we snuggled 🙂 The physical closeness was now based in the Truth of his needs rather than projecting his needs onto me. That example is a gift from God that I continue to mine. Because I realize that had I not questioned and we not explored together, our closeness would be based on a lie but ALSO I would have been emotionally heavier. I battle depression and believe this is one reason. I carry the emotional weight of his unexpressed feelings. We would have cuddled because Nancy was hurt, not because he was insecure.
So… his motives for ‘serving’ are self deceptive ( which is why his ‘serving’ at church is particularly painful because the hypocrisy is magnified). And as a result emotionally heavy on me. When we go to church, I lose his heart because it becomes all about performance. Any real intimacy we have immediately goes out the window because of an audience. And because the audience thinks h is AMAZING and gives so much. As I stated in another post our counsellor said that I was a “natural giver” and that was just incredible. It blew up the lie that h is the giver and I am the selfish one.
I brought up the above closeness example as to why it was important to me that he be aware of his own motives and that I lose him in front of an audience. After telling him this, I didn’t expect a deep conversation, in fact I thought he might retreat, but what I questioned was the indirect way of doing that ( blaming his ‘personality’ for wanting space – more self deception, instead of just asking for what he needed). You see his biggest issue is knowing and stating his needs. Somehow it’s always someone else’s fault ( his personality), or someone else’s needs ( projecting onto me).
I guess what I need to work on with my own counsellor, is how do I not take on the weight of what he tries to put on me. When I question, sometimes we get to resolution ( ie. the physical closeness example) but sometimes he defends by trying to blame shift me into taking the responsibility for his unexpressed feelings.
I’ll not do the homework of looking into his eyes while talking about my day ( brilliant homework! It showed me immediately so much about intimacy and why, until I feel safe again, I will not be forcing myself to look into the eyes of someone I feel intimidated by, even if he or the counsellors doesn’t understand why). When I feel safe again, I’ll resume.
Thanks Aly, for reminding me that my Counsellor/, Advocate/ Spiritvof Truth is with me!
Lori, you know my favorite part of my counseling?? Not was she focused on saving my marriage,
Not was she concerned about my children, but she said to me, Robin YOU MATTER. Let’s take some time to find out who Robin is and what she needs. We are stil working on me because there has been so much that was ignored. If I was to recommend a counselor, it would be for you. We need to have our wounds heard and healed. We need to hear someone say, You are important. These were the best days of my life, when I finally was heard and validated and knew I was loved.
Robin,
“Let’s take some time to find out who Robin is and what she needs. We are stil working on me because there has been so much that was ignored.”
Yes. I believe you and hear a call to step out of the boat with eyes on my Savior trusting in His guidance.
The waves for me (that have kept me in the sinking boat) have been the solidifying shaping of my thinking/experience with regard to “therapy” or “counseling”.
Particularly that:
1. My father accomplished his Masters in counseling. (I shudder to think of his victims). At the time it was so respectable to have gained such knowledge and was seen as valiant of him to be in a career that sought to help people. I think he sincerely wanted to help others, but his NPD got the best of him.
I remember one particular day when (after watching and hearing of his help to others and hearing of their praise of him), I got up the courage to ask him to help me find a counselor for me. (here come the tears again….gawwwhhhh)
His response to me was: “No counselor can ever help you, all you need is Jesus.”
I was 24 years old. How I wish I knew then what I am learning now. How I wish!
Although I can see clearly now why he might have said that to me, it certainly had the affect of confusing me with regard to the benefits of counsel. More importantly and I think more damaging to me was the affect of isolating me from it. I believe it was the lifeline I needed at the time to get free from him.
To seek it for myself would be an affront to his counsel and NPD system that he desperately needed to stay in place.
He used his position to ensure a supply of praise for himself, and to deny me of my own personal need for healing.
It sickens me.
2. I think you know my experience with the male counselor I had for 2 1/2 years and his exploitation of me.
They are enormous waves for me and I tremble at the thought of stepping out even though it may be my healing at stake.
Thank you for your inspiring story that there ARE people who will not consume us. Thank you for being part of this community of faith that proves this to be true.
It has given me the strength and courage to consider the impossible in my world: Reaching out for a helping/trustworthy hand of authentic help, which I was told does not exist.
Blessings Robin.
Lori,
Wow Robin’s words are so true and filled with so much care!
I agree in so many ways.
Such Bravery Lori!
~I will be praying for you in that counseling process.
It can be such a place & experience where in some instances ‘(we are re-parented) with love.
I’m standing with you!
Aly,
Thank you.
That is so true Aly. My counselor has adopted me, and is truly reparenting me. FYI- my mom was an abusive alcoholic.
Whatever our need- God has the answer as we look to Him!!
Oh Robin,
I just saw this that you said: “FYI- my mom was an abusive alcoholic.”
Shaking my head here and hugging you. I am sorry that this commonality is shared by us. Alcoholism.
I am not even capable of seeing the grandness of the destruction of this disease/disorder/sin….don’t care what it is called.
Marinated comes to mind. So sorry we had this experience growing up. I do love the greater truth you share here also: “Whatever our need- God has the answer as we look to Him!!
Beauty from the ashes of our lives. Glory to God!!!!
I love that this truth is the connection and commonality we share as well. It is a deep knowing of Gods faithfulness to us here who have desperately needed it.
Lori,
Oh my I am so so sorry!
Words cannot express the expression on my face after reading your post:
You wrote:
“1. My father accomplished his Masters in counseling. (I shudder to think of his victims). At the time it was so respectable to have gained such knowledge and was seen as valiant of him to be in a career that sought to help people. I think he sincerely wanted to help others, but his NPD got the best of him.
I remember one particular day when (after watching and hearing of his help to others and hearing of their praise of him), I got up the courage to ask him to help me find a counselor for me. (here come the tears again….gawwwhhhh)
His response to me was: “No counselor can ever help you, all you need is Jesus.””
Lori, I’m glad you are discovering the truth and not that statement above from your father.
Yes it’s true that we all need Jesus desperately, but even God created Eve with a Good purpose!
This is not my own quote:
In this broken world ~We are harmed in relationships and we are. Healed in relationships
Yes God heals our hearts but he also shows us our healing family in the Kingdom of God💖
I’m praying for you and I am so very sorry but God will hold your heart!
Dear Lori,
I’m so glad you are preparing your heart to reach out for counseling help, Lori. It’s a courageous step, especially considering what you have gone through. I’m pained to hear of how your father manipulated, controlled, and “fed off” you for his ego instead of directing you to freedom and healing.
I’m praying for the Lord to guide you to a skilled and gifted counselor with equipping in the areas you need. You have likely already thought of this, but perhaps a female would feel safer.
Much love.
Aly and TL,
Thank you for your encouragement to step forward. I just think it should be a natural step and not need to be such a step of leaping off a cliff.
Yes TL. ONLY a female will work for me for now.
Planning on contacting P. Doyle’s office today, but I wonder if you could help me to define for them “why” I am reaching out so they can best guide me to a “who”.
Also, I would like to have a clear response to the “why” in case it is asked of me. I really don’t want to break down in tears unable to tell them what I need.
Lori last time I asked my counselor how to find a good one-
She said ask questions.
Are they experienced with emotional abuse?
Are they familiar with Leslie Vernick books or Lundy Bancroft??
You should be asking questions , not them!!!!
Okay Robin,
If you think of any other questions I might ask ( I will be thinking also) please feel free to share.
Lori,
Not sure how careful you need to be about anonymity, but if you tell us where in Oregon you are, maybe one of us has friends or relatives there that we can ask referrals from? You could also look online like at this site below; but in your area. Then scroll through, clicking to read for clues on their specialties. Sometimes they give a clue regarding being a Christian, too.
https://therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/prof_results.php?city=Portland&state=OR&spec=405
Lastly, sometimes large churches have a professional counseling clinic or could refer you.
When I get off work I will. BUT DO NOT MAKE AN APPT UNTIL YOUR QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED FOR YOUR SAFETY!!!!!!!
Mama-bear/sisterly protection! Love it, Robin! 🙂
Yes, Lori; I agree it should be natural, not forced…when you are ready.
When you do call, I would just say, “Hello, I am calling to see if your office could refer me to a counselor in my area. I need a counselor who can help me in my recovery from an emotionally abusive marriage. (You could throw in “to a covert narcissist” if you’d like.)
If they don’t have a referral for you, I would recommend calling your local battered women’s shelter. They should have some worthy referrals. (Hopwfulky you can find a Christian one.)
And I love Robin’s tips once you DO get a referral.
🙏Xo
Nancy,
Thanks for writing, I think it’s really good that you are writing down what you are experiencing.. I believe your counselor is going to be able to help especially with your details!
I understand some things below and I want to pray for your heart specifically in what you wrote below.
You wrote:
“I guess what I need to work on with my own counsellor, is how do I not take on the weight of what he tries to put on me.”
I will pray that you will find strength in dealing with this and that th counselor will help you in this area.
Sometimes it takes some time to unravel what is ‘ours’ and what clearly isn’t and how we can cope in a healthier way throughout the process.
If your feeling upset with the projection.. I validate that in a big way, nothing is more deceptive/ manipulative than a person using a form of indirect communication to avoid (intimacy or feeling insecure and needing reassurance)
I think this is what you were referring to but I could have gotten that wrong.
You wrote:
“When I question, sometimes we get to resolution ( ie. the physical closeness example) but sometimes he defends by trying to blame shift me into taking the responsibility for his unexpressed feelings.
I think this is well articulated and I hope the counselor can give the necessary feedback so this doesn’t keep cycling for you.
Especially as you are doing homework. It may be that the counselor work individually with you both for some time too.
Just a thought?
I’m confused a bit about the church serving responsibility and what you are experiencing emotionally~
Please don’t feel like you have to answer..you don’t have to give any more info..
I’m just thinking outloud,
I wonder if this is an area that needs to be put on the back burner. These marital places take a lot of time and emotional space to swim.
Sometimes too many obligations (even good service ones) can add to more distraction of avoidance to resolution.
This was certainly an area for my h of having too many (good) paper plates flying in proportion to the very imp china ones.
Many things had to be on the back burner for my h and I. Even the things we enjoyed…
Not sure if that’s helpful but I guess I want you to get the most out of your joint counseling and all the emotional/physical time it takes.
One of the very first things one of our counselor’s said ~ first meeting:
We each had to answer individually to how committed we are to work on the marriage covenant?
And we would also be evaluated later on.
It was helpful and it begins a process of being able to see fruit or not and measure.
I’m in prayer for you Nancy;) and your h as many of the ladies are here too💗
Anna!
Love what you wrote;
“God is not warped regarding love. He requires commitment not to be mistaken for oppression.”
So glad your free and living a healthy thriving relationship;) Praise God!
Thank you for your kind heart toward me and so many here, Aly.
I am tired. Last night triggered me something fierce, and I am exhausted.
I agree about putting ‘serving’ on hold, my h has cut back a lot but loves the accolades too much, so he gets sucked in. Someone asks him for something and he jumps.
Now that I can see these things it’s very hard not to take personally when he chooses the wall. It feels like a roller coaster. Yes, I’m a vacillator but when I run into an invisible wall that goes up without predictability, I have reason to retreat. What is crazy making is that he continues on being the even, and fun loving dad meanwhile I’ve been run off into the ditch. That’s what the kids see. They ask, “mom, are you ok?” , I answer “thanks for asking, I’m having a rough day” this is not ok.
We need to put words on this so they don’t end up feeling crazy, or thinking that mom is crazy. Maybe we can tell them together that dad and mom are struggling to get along, but are committed to one another and are going to counselling to learn how to do things better….? I think my h should be the one to mostly speak. Does this make sense? I’m in the weeds at the moment!
Thank you for validating my being upset with the projection. Arghhhhhh. It’s like a house of mirrors! So hard to find the ‘form’ of the issue instead of the illusion he is working so hard to create….actually, no the illusion making comes EASY to him, it’s not hard work at all. The work comes in trusting in God to guide us out of this crazy making place.
Yes our counsellor did the same, asked us each individually how committed we are. He said it was super important because as things get rough we need to rely on that commitment to hold things together, otherwise we’ll run. He said it would get rough, I didn’t know it would be this soon.
I speak to my counsellor on Wednesday. I think I need to spend that time figuring out what I need in order to feel safe in this process. If I don’t feel safe, everything comes to a grinding halt, as it should. Leslie talks about how safety and sanity need to be established before marriage counselling can be effective.
So grateful for each of you, here ❤️
Hi Dear Nancy,
Just want you to know I am really praying for you; for strength and grace and wisdom…and clarity. I encourage you to take time to just sit in your swirling feelings and ask the Lord to reveal what and why. It will come to you; if not right then, he will bring it later. He is right beside you and will help you find your way through this forest.
Praying for skilled counseling and breakthroughs in your sessions, too.
I hope you feel my big hug. 🙂
Thank you T.L., so much ❤️
Lori, I’m sorry for the awful experiences you’ve had with counselors. The thing that kept me knocking on the doors of counselors, church leaders, etc….. were my children. I knew I never could give myself permission to stop looking for help. I needed to find one person who would believe me and help me save my children from harm. That’s why I never gave up.
When you go towards a counselor my thought would be you ask the questions — not them. You need to find out before you walk in their office, what their counseling approach was. Is their training for abuse?? Are they familiar with books like Cry for Justice, Leslie Vernick, Lundy Bancroft?? It’s important to know what they believe about abuse.
You can ask the receptionist where the counselor got her training. Find out as much as you can about their style……
T.L.
I so know how your feeling with this. And yes I totally found myself asking, searching.. needing answers. I was in a place of well persistent with needing clarity.
You wrote:
“just curious, you never would have described your husband with a personality disorder, would you? (Like NPD, OCPD, BPD, etc?)”
Yes, I did and I did as much research and working with my counselor too. I even was more leaning toward aspbergers/ intimacy issue based on the high intelligence angle I was observing. He didn’t check off the npd towards the children.
Toward me absolutely yes. Toward his parents, no. Confusing right.
My husband was in full awareness of my struggle and certainly wasn’t excited about myself needing answers to a repetitive reaction I continued to during our marriage.
As we did more attachment work even on our own~ he scored 100% for avoidant.
You wrote:
“Because sometimes I feel like asking you all these questions about how your husband responded, grew, changed etc. may just be my “false hope” trying to squirm back in.”
I’m tracking here with you and yes I felt the same way during much of our joint counseling. I certainly don’t want to give any false hope but I do want you to feel supported as you work through your journey.
For me, a clinician’s approach and observations was critical to my sanity~ this is why I felt the need to require ‘couples counseling’ based on his ability to not fully represent our dynamic or dance and what would happen with me in the room (being me)
Individually couseling is essential especially given the safety factor for many..I strongly recommend giving every possible experience to a clinician to get a better assessment.
given my h and myself’ dynamic the joint counsel helps in ways as two people interact and deal with difficult emotional issues, or unresolved problems….
Verses the two behind closed doors.. this gave me sanity for my situation. Especially as he was consistently using every tactic to avoid responsibility ~ looks very much like npd.
You wrote:
“Part of my husband’s pathology is superiority (he knows what’s best, knows more, etc.) and so he can’t or won’t trust people.”
This is common~ not normal as you know. Trust wounds run deep and yes huge sign of npd. But also that of avoidance too, get a clinical opinion if you can for your own mindset.
The superior thing is a defensive mechanism as much as it can be also be npd.
This is what I experience greatly with my siblings and parents. Based on options we have given.
If your husband is willing to expose himself to other men ~ Godly mature men to help mentor and give support.. this is a good corner to turn. It gives accountability and support to be seen and accepted but challenged to grow.
Unless strongly addressed..,Most men do tend to have ‘intimacy issues’ because they lack their manhood, identity in God, sexuality etc and all of manhood in a Godly healthy way..
Thus, finding counterfeit ways that don’t help and cause more insecurity and deeper Shame patterns.
You wrote;
“Allowing himself to truly be held accountable and truly submit himself to multiple interventions?”
Given the infractions… I see nothing wrong with requiring this to be an area of growth.
You wrote:
“That would be a real miracle. I need to remind myself of that to keep my eyes straight ahead and not in the clouds!”
Given what you have expressed in other posts, I don’t see you in the clouds at all especially the healthy boundaries you have put in place to get healthy yourself.
Maybe you have had a lot of past ‘cloud experiences’ or disappointments with him so it’s normal that you would be weary and want to be in a clear place.
Personally TL I see nothing wrong with you requesting your needs to little by little build trust toward a bigger goal.
You know much of my story… continue to ask I’m sure Ive missed lots.
But requirements that produce healing are a good thing! I had a quite a list of requirements to build trust and work together.
This isn’t your job to do..
Your h has to be willing to see how you have and are experiencing the marriage with him and what ‘the costs’ of those behaviors have been.
It’s up to him if he wants to work hard to dismantle and rebuild.
I’m with you as a friend and sister in Christ! I’m praying for you and the health of both of you as Christ would desire!
💖
Lori, that last paragraph is so right on. Follow the peace. If you don’t have peace for either option, then wait until you do. That should be how we deal with all of our life decisions. Pray first, then follow the peace. thank you for that.
Aly,
Wow, so interesting! Many different answers than I’d expected….
Thank you again!!! That was so helpful! You have given me so much to ponder!
Hi T.L. and Aly,
I got a lot out of your last post, too, Aly 🙂
As far as wether someone had a true PD or is avoidant, doesn’t Diane Langberg put it this way (I’m paraphrasing):
When dealing with the person [in the case of the video on narcissistic systems] we can’t see the heart, we don’t know if it’s completely hard or if there is a soft spot in there somewhere. Either way we treat the person the same way, and only time will tell if true transformation will take place.
This is probably why Leslie suggests setting boundaries, getting well ourselves, etc… Only time, and good boundaries, will tell wether transformation of our partners are ‘in the cards’.
I think that’s the danger in ‘diagnosing’ our loved ones too quickly. The more we dwell on those labels, the less we leave the possibility open ( in our own minds) for their transformation. Conversely, the criteria are really important to understand in order to understand that it is not us. There really ARE distortions there, and we are not crazy!
A while ago a psychologist identified our youngest daughter as a ‘defensive controller’. We were her 5 th placement before we adopted her. Because of all she had been through, she feels the need to control. I immediately understood what that meant because Inrealized that I had lived with a defensive controller,for years. That was a gift from God.
It doesn’t however, minimize the work that needs to be done.
Nancy, excellent reminders; thank you; especially what Diane Langberg said. Labels do make me uncomfortable, because they box people in. We don’t know the heart, so true. God knows if there is a soft spot and just how to get to it. Time will tell. Thank you for your insights and reminders, Nancy and Aly.
T.L. Nancy,
Yes I agree with both of you and certainly wanted to clarify any of ‘unanswered questions’ given our process. I really have tried not to ‘label’ but show the behavior attitudes that seem consistent with attachment and the addictions that come out of that.
Nancy, I am so sorry for you Place of ‘the weeds’ I’m praying for strength for you and I can understand the exhaustion in ways. I hope you can read my validation in knowing your not alone.
Do you have other women physically too in your church or else that understand what your going through?
~I think it’s good that you have a counselor that you can work with individually or together.
Given my own sanity, and wanting the best for us both.., I needed the help of a clinician to direct me to know what I’m dealing with, and especially since we have children… this person (whom I do love) was going to be a part of my life in some way or form.
I do believe category based terms help describe behaviors and narrow down patterns. I don’t think without that, my h would have been able ‘to admit to abusive tactics’ that were harming to my whole being.
In our situation it was helpful for my h to know what he and myself we’re struggling with internally ~ to be more avoidant a person is choosing a coping skill to avoid struggle or difference.
It’s hard for avoidant behaviors to give ‘freedom’ free agency especially in a marriage because they struggle acknowledging that there is another point of view, let alone respond and offer mutual respect.
Aly, just to clarify; I wasn’t speaking of you as labeling! I mean me, as I gave reference to OCPD, etc. A counselor I saw suspects my husband may have a PD, (which I just see as deeply entrenched strongholds of unhealthy patterns of behavior.)
Anyway, I did not mean that you were labeling at all! Terms that you use have been very helpful!
T.L
Time is important as it can measure change in ways.
Although, I think it’s also wise to see what one does with their time and what they don’t do.
As with most anything really.
You know some of my parents situation and once things got revealed and healthy boundaries were given, it was up to them and what they do with their time.
Unfortunately, for me I see consistent victim mindset ~ based on not respecting boundaries so the only other option is victim ‘waiting’ rather than take accountability and work toward mutual relationship.
So what one does ‘in their time’ is telling and quite predictable for the dynamic future behavior of the relationship and if they again are going to be abusive with even ‘time’… at least it is for me.
My h biggest places of recovery was seeing the ‘cost of time’ he stole while having more than enough resources to available to grow with grace and love on the table.
This was not something he came to awareness of on his own, in his ‘own timeout’ and thinking process. Because how he did time, managed time etc was deeply ingrained since early on.
These beliefs with the willingness factor get rooted out in the process and change one trajectory/perspective.
In continued prayer, i know these waters are rough at times. I believe in community for support and care for our hearts and burdens.
Stay sane, stay safe and mostly hold on to Your First Love~ Happy Valentines ❤️
TL
No worries, I didn’t respond to take offense, just hoping to clarify if that was how my writing was coming across.. because I can see how that is possible.
I just want you to know as I think we both deal similarly to our marriages what length and depths I have looked into for answers. 🤗 Especially since you are being wise about any false hope given the current situation.
Hugs coming your way!!
Hi T.L., and Aly,
It’s tricky, eh? The balance of setting boundaries, sticking to them and – your right Aly- keenly observing how the other responds over time, but without crossing those lines myself.
Reliance on the Holy Spirit is essential.
Accessing a ‘clinicians mind’ as you put it, Aly, sounds like a fit for me because I have a tendency to want to just trust ( instead of weighing the evidence).
I can see how using labels will help my h ‘wake up’. Learning that his behaviour is abusive FLOORED me. But again, it’s not going to be me telling him what those behaviour clusters mean or are called, that will have to be revealed in counselling as the Spirit leads.
Thanks for asking if I have support from anyone around me. I have one sister ( who the referral of the counsellor came from) who has been through something similar ( 2.5 year separation, now together). Other than that, no. It’s so doificult to explain because it’s so covert. We have asked three couples to pray for us so far, and have found this to be good. But we’ll decide how much to share with them as the Spirit leads. My brother in law and sister in law are one of those couples ( they live far away).
I got an email this morning from her saying “I hope that you are communicatng openly, and honestly and that there is patience and understanding for you both. We love you both so very much.”
I was very grateful for the opportunity to speak truth in my response, I wrote, “thanks so much for your email, ( name). Safety comes before communication and when that line is crossed, communication stops. We will be going on Thursday and I will be asking for parameters of safety to be established.” (Then other small talk.)
That felt soooooo good to write. I’m so grateful to The Holy Spirit in guiding me how to tell Truth while being respectful of my h. I have spent so much of my time protecting my h’s good image!
Aly, how did you navigate this? Balancing speaking Truth without throwing your h under the bus?
Dear Nancy,
I know your weary at times and I know you have the Lord to give you strength, and times of rest along your way! He does! He does!
I’m glad you feel like you have one person in your immediate circle that is a bit more in tune to what your situation is and can validate the behaviors your receiving and how you are able to respond in love. This is very important.
~Your friend might be able to extend your circle with other women she is involved with. She might also be able to offer support groups ( either in person) or a call in group?
This is just a suggestion so you can foster more growth and trust for your journey. Maybe Leslie V. team would have other groups too?
Prayer and the work of the Holy Spirit are crucial!
I agree with you;)
You asked a specific question though:
You wrote:
“Aly, how did you navigate this? Balancing speaking Truth without throwing your h under the bus?”
Being that ‘I’ was predominantly thrown under the bus … my voice was hard to hear.
(Trying to be a little funny for humor)
Seriously, though I so love my h and many things I just adore…i understand what your saying (I think)
A person has both (good & bad behaviors) it’s helpful to keep your heart in a balance here. This doesn’t negate behaviors that need addressing for the health of the marriage.
I only know if one all perfectly good person image~ Jesus❤️
A couple thoughts & versus come mind.
Is marriage between man and woman a union in heaven? No,
Why it is here on earth for what purpose?
Is it about happiness or holiness?
None of us will be doing marriage with our spouses in heaven. Technically they are our brothers and sisters in Christ~ as professing believers;)
(James 5:16-20
And Matthew 18:15-17 )
I won’t write them out here but I see where God shows us that confession and confrontation aid in the ingredient of healing and growing.
Giving truth in love especially my covenant spouse is not throwing one under the bus in my opinion. In fact, I am called helpmate.
This goes for my husband as well that he is called to truth and love for desiring the highest good for me. Our flesh and ingrained behaviors may get in the way though.
You wrote:
Reliance on the Holy Spirit is essential.
Can you tell me more what this means to you?
If your saying this in regards to your well being and action I agree and with this many of God’s people followed and trusted God for the outcome. God’s people were used for His glory. They were relying on the Holy Spirit for the guidance and wisdom themselves because they were surrendered ‘in heart’ to God.
I grew up in a home of some I guess I would say enabling ~ secret keepers of sorts (protecting the family image)
If someone had behavior that was revealing of flesh character/respect issues… many would look the other way and be thankful that the Holy Spirit somehow will deal entirely with the offense and somehow the Holy Spirit is the ‘only responsible’ place to lay account on.
You and I have touched on enmeshment in families and sometimes these words can mean different things to different people.
I think discernment is wise. I think the Holy Spirit can help us discern situations where we can share and where we can’t. Sometimes we have to test some things.
Do you feel fearful if you share your marital struggles (with a couple that are praying) that you are not ‘saving face’ or image for your husband or family? That’s it’s better if they think there are (general problems not specific) …
I’m just trying to understand what you might be fearful of.
Trust me being fearful is normal, feeling insecure different times is normal~
You and I know our eternal hope in our destination, but we are desiring to grow here more into the image of Christ as best as we can try each day right?
I think it’s a good thing that you are reaching out finding resources and sharing.. even in this forum. Because I believe the Lord Honors honesty.
I think you are brave in wanting to deal with this issue or get to the main reasons you are in this situation with your husband. Even if you are the one sounding an alarm, that’s ok and that’s you being responsible & wanting to make peace in your home as the Lord asks.
There are many marriages that won’t reveal their is a problem (sometimes fear, pride, or constant distractions to not feel) and they do go underground, some just die all together, some divorce, some just stay cancerous and influence others in their own dysfunction norms/ standards.
You mentioned that there must be safety before communication.
Can you tell me more about that?
Is this something similar like.. your h needs to learn how to hear your experience of him and how that impacts you?
You wrote:
“That felt soooooo good to write. I’m so grateful to The Holy Spirit in guiding me how to tell Truth while being respectful of my h. I have spent so much of my time protecting my h’s good image!”
Please!!! You don’t have to answer ,I’m wondering if you also felt like you do this protecting or have done this with other relationships?
Much love and care for your heart!
Hi Aly,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my questions and statements.
It is indeed helpful to consider the purpose of marriage when thinking about my fear of “throwing my h under the bus”. Yes, telling truth in love, IS love. I realize in considering your questions, “marriage in heaven? No. Happiness or holiness?” that my fear is based on me being conditioned in two ways:
– do not question him ( no confrontation for the purpose of growth)
– uphold his ‘good guy’ image
Neither of these is Godly. Conversely my desire to be respectful is Godly. Maybe it’s redefining ‘respect’ to exclude the above 2 ungodly desires.
You asked what I mean by reliance on the Holy Spirit? I mean relying on Him in moment to moment interactions for discernment, truth telling ( He’s the Spirit of Truth!), and guidance to guard my heart. So no, I don’t mean that the HolynSpirit is my enabler. Wow. I wonder if that’s how my mother justifies her unwillingness/ inability to look in the mirror? I never thought of it like that…
As far as sharing or not sharing our struggles with couples that are praying for us….hmmmm not sure if there is fear of saving face for myself in there. I’m more aware of again my fear of “throwing my h under the bus”.
In this:
I don’t have any other words for our problems except for emotional abuse, or emotionally destructive. Unless someone is very aware of these issues, I won”t be able to trust them because I fear they will see it as ‘all in my head’.
So here’s what happened the last time we were in marriage counselling. I said I didn’t feel safe with my h. Once the therapist determined there was nothing physical he looked at me and said, “safety is your issue, it’s something you have to work on.” If a therapist thinks that, then what will church people think/ say when they know and see what a warm and helpful guy my h is. They’ll think I’m the problem. Sure, I’m part of the problem, but emotional abuse is covert and very difficult to understand. Heck, I’ve been reading about it for almost a year, and I still doubt myself.
So maybe I’m afraid that I will be thrown under the bus….
So, I’m afraid it being me ‘overreacting’ or ‘being dramatic’.
Your last question about if there was someone else I had done this protecting with ( protecting good image). OH YES. My mother. I still feel that way because my mother is fun loving and lovely, except that she’s borderline ( narcissism one of the traits)! It’s VERY confusing. Even as an adult. I have no idea what to say when someone says, “oh your mother is just so great! I love her, she was always so kind to me.” That is what I grew up with and that is crazy making. Yes, I’m afraid of being seen as the crazy one. No one would believe how hard-hearted/ damaged my mother is.
Good question, Aly. The protecting the image thing is a repeat of my childhood. Actually, just asking people for prayer and letting them know we are in great need was very freeing. I just don’t know how to tell the Truth. That’s my problem. I need to pray about what are good boundaries and what is honesty.
As far as ‘safety before communication’ what I mean is yes, I need him to at least want to care about his effect on me. But also, there’s no way I will open up if I don’t feel emotionally safe. The second he starts to blame shift, manipulate, guilt trip, I end the conversation. This is how I’ve functioned for the past 10 months in order to not become reactive. I say, “I Don’t feel safe, I need to go.” This is what happened when we were practicing our “looking in the eyes excercise” , I felt the manipulation and shut the conversation down. He has a hard time respecting my limit ( he feels shut down, and that I have taken control), and will guilt trip, manipulate to try to get me back into conversation. In the past, I’d get dragged back in, but then it’d get ugly.
So…if I don’t feel safe, I will become reactive. I’d much rather “shut him down” than re-engage in our old dance.
Hurray! So glad you are up and running! Thank you Leslie and all the hard-working crew! We are all so grateful for this blog!
Hi Lori,
I have a recommendation of a counselor for you, from a friend in your area. This counselor is supposed to be very good. (I don’t know your budget; she is not cheap.) Here is a link to her website:
http://livingwholehearted.com/about/our-team/terra-mattson/
TL, my only concern for the referral you got for Lori is she doesn’t say much about abuse, destructive relationships, etc. did the person that recommended this counselor mention her experience with emotional abuse??
TL,
Thank you for this recommendation. I do appreciate your help in finding someone. I will probably keep that as a card in my back pocket for now.
How are you doing?
Lori, none of my responses found u last week. I’m so sorry.
Hi Robin,
I am just now seeing these new responses since the shut down/new server happening.
Thinking of you all and was also during the shut down.
Currently immersing myself in the teachings of Christine Louis de Canonville. It is the puzzle piece I have been needing my entire life. It fits in every scenario that comes to my rememberance that used to baffle me. It is true that we can know the truth and it will set us free. Being set free and I KNOW IT!
Still praying about therapy et al. and have some leads. Thank you for your prayers my sisters. How are you all doing?
I’m glad to hear but I’ve never heard of her Lori. Where did u find her??