Are Consequences the Same as Punishment?
Morning friend,
Happy Thanksgiving my friends. How have you practiced this week giving thanks “in” all things? (1 Thessalonians 5:18) During a FB live this week, I told our listeners that on Turkey Day I would wake up with 3 phrases in the forefront of my mind around how I wanted to show up. Kind, good sense of humor, and not rushing, and I also added a fourth, thankful. Anchoring myself in a few core words helps me when I spill the hot gravy on my clean floor, or forget to put in the rolls, or burn the rolls, or some other minor mishap that could “ruin” the day or dinner if I’m not mindful on how I want to show up, regardless of what happens.
You see, we DO get a choice on how we want our day to go – our life story for today. We don’t get to control all of what happens TO us but we can be intentional on how we respond to it, if we give it some thought.
If you haven’t signed up yet for my upcoming webinar, I encourage you to do so today, Change Your Story, Change Your Life: How to Move From Breakdown to Breakthrough. Its two identical sessions, Dec, 4 at noon ET or 7:30 pm ET. This workshop is NOT on social media, but on a private webinar space, so you must sign up to attend. You will receive an e-mail link to attend.
This blog question is one that often causes a lot of confusion for people who are in destructive relationships. It’s a bit longer than usual because I added the Bible verses that may be helpful to gain more clarity for you.
I’m thankful for you and this community and how you rally around each other and support each other.
Question: When you talk about implementing consequences with someone who is destructive, I feel confused. Doesn’t God’s word encourage us to forgive and be merciful and gracious? Implementing consequences, especially with another adult feels to me like you are still punishing someone even though you forgave him or her. Please clarify this confusing issue for me.
Answer: Your confusion is common, and I’ve struggled understanding this concept myself. There is a distinction between punishment and consequences although in certain instances they may overlap and to the one on the receiving end, they may feel like they are the same thing.
First, you’re correct. God is a God of mercy and mercy expresses itself in compassion. Because of God’s great compassion, love, and mercy, he does not give us what we deserve. Because of our sin and disobedience, we deserve his wrath. But instead, he offers us forgiveness, through the blood of Christ. When Jesus died, God poured out his wrath on Christ and therefore there is no condemnation or punishment for our sin when we are “in Christ” (Romans 8:1).
However, the consequence of our refusal to accept God’s free gift is that we don't get to enjoy the gift of forgiveness or a personal relationship with God. Christmas is coming soon. Imagine you offer to give an extravagant gift to someone who didn’t deserve it. Perhaps you offered to pay off their mortgage, buy them a new car, or pay off all their school loans. But due to pride, or shame, they refuse your gift. The consequences (not punishment) would be that they would not have the new car, or the house or school loans paid off. This is not a punishment, merely a consequence of his or her own choice.
Some consequences may feel like punishment. For example, if you drive drunk, the consequences are you lose your driver’s license and may serve jail time. If you harm someone while driving drunk, there may be more “legal consequences” that result in harsher consequences (punishment). Or, if you commit adultery, the consequences might be divorce, or a sexually transmitted disease, which may “feel” like punishment especially if your spouse has “forgiven you.”
Consequences are a direct result of our own, or someone else’s choices and behaviors. Being a believer does not shield us from experiencing consequences. It shields us from God’s wrath, but we may still experience negative consequences from our own or others sinful choices. The Bible puts it this way, “Whatever a man sows, he reaps” (Galatians 6:7). This biblical farming metaphor enabled people to understand a simple truth. If you plant turnips, you reap turnips. Turnips were a natural result (consequence) of what you planted. Another way of putting it is this: if you plant turnips, don’t expect to see tulips.
Consequences are not always negative. For example, if I pay my bills on time, the consequence is that I build a good credit rating. On the other hand, if I don’t pay my bills on time, the consequences will be a negative credit rating, repossession of things I own, bankruptcy, or other financial problems. These are not punishments; they are the consequences of my choices.
God has given human beings an incredible gift and that is our chooser. We get to choose how we will steward our one precious life, whether we will take good care of our body, our money, our relationships, our time, and the gifts and talents he gives us. When we make good choices, the consequences are generally (not always) positive. When we make poor choices, the consequences are generally (not always) negative. The book of Proverbs has a lot to say about these concepts and how to gain wisdom so that the choices we make lead to better consequences.
Yet we sometimes see in Scripture and in life that God is so gracious and merciful that he doesn’t make us suffer the natural consequence of a foolish or sinful choice. The story of Jean Valjean, in Les Misérables, powerfully illustrates this idea.
In the play, the thief Jean Valjean is apprehended by the police because he has in his possession valuable silver candlesticks that don’t look like they belong to him. He tells the police that they were a gift from the Bishop but the police don’t believe him. They drag Jean Valjean back to the bishop to prove he lied. The Bishop says,
“Monsieur, release him. This man has spoken true. I commend you for your duty, now God's blessing go with you”.
[to Valjean]
Bishop: “But remember this, my brother, see in this some higher plan. You must use this precious silver to become an honest man. By the witness of the martyrs, by the Passion and the Blood, God has raised you out of darkness; I have bought your soul for God!”
The Bishop did not demand Jean Valjean suffer the consequences of his thievery. He pardoned him but left him with a charge. This extravagant gift must be used to shape him into an honest, a better man. And if you’ve seen the film or the play, that’s exactly what happened.
But what happens when extravagant grace does not yield positive changes? What happens when the thief goes on to steal more? Then consequences become the most merciful path to wake someone up to their destructive ways.
The apostle Paul writes to the Romans, “Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?” (Romans 2:4). When we extend extravagant mercy to someone who does not deserve our kindness, it is meant to wake that person up to change his or her ways. And when that happens it is a beautiful thing. However, when that does not happen, it often empowers and emboldens the sinner to sin in greater ways. Paul goes on to talk about that in the rest of Romans 2.
To answer your question, yes, there are times for extravagant mercy, where we step in and do not put into place the natural consequences that may be due and instead sacrificially forgive and bear the weight of the consequences (as the Bishop did when he lost the valuable candlesticks). And, yes, there is a point when a person has not changed or repented from repeated sinful behaviors and it’s time to allow the natural consequences of his or her choices to bear down on his/her life in the hope the person will repent and change his or her destructive ways
We see examples from both the Old and New Testaments of this concept. For example:
1 Corinthians 5:9 “I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people – not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindles, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler – not even to each with such a one…..Purge the evil person from among you.” (Consequences – loss of relationship/fellowship)
Ephesians 5:11 “Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, instead expose them.” (Consequences – will not hide or pretend or cover up sin).
Romans 16:13 Watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naïve. (Paul isn’t saying – let’s just forgive and forget every problem but there are consequences for repeatedly sinful behavior)
1 Corinthians 15:33 Do not be deceived: Bad company ruins good morals.” (Consequences: You will be corrupted by the company you keep)
2 Thessalonians 2:3 “Don’t let anyone deceive you” (Consequences – stay wary of people who repeatedly lie)
2 Peter 3:16 “…There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.” (Consequences – when people are good at twisting words, especially Scriptures, be careful around them because you will lose your own stability – crazy-making)
2 Timothy 3:1-5 – For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self- control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.” (Consequences – loss of relationship with certain kinds of people who repeatedly sin in these ways)
2 Thessalonians 3:6 “Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.” (Consequences – loss of relationship)
Titus 3:10 “As for the person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.” (Consequences – loss of relationship)
Paul in warning young Timothy said, “Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done. You too should be on your guard against him, because he strongly opposed our message.” 2 Timothy 4:14,15 (Consequences – loss of trust)
In the Old Testament, Numbers 14 –up to this point but Moses pleaded with God, “In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just has you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now.
The Lord Replied, “I have forgiven them, as you asked. Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the Lord fills the whole earth, not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times – not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their forefathers. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it.” (Consequences – I forgive them, but consequences stand: They do not get to see the Promised Land).
Proverbs 19:19 “A man of great wrath will suffer punishment; for if you rescue him, you will have to do it again. (Consequences: If you keep enabling someone to sin against you, they will keep hurting you so stop doing it).
Consequences are the best teacher for a person who has not listened to words.
Proverbs 29:1 “He who is often reproved, yet stiffens his neck, will suddenly be broken beyond healing” (Consequences: When you refuse to listen to words, your life starts careening out of control.)
Jeremiah 4:18 “Your own conduct and actions have brought this upon you. This is your punishment. How bitter it is. How it pierces to the heart.” (Consequences can feel like punishment).
Jeremiah 9:4 “Let everyone beware of his neighbor and put no trust in any brother, for every brother is a deceiver and every neighbor goes about as a slanderer. Everyone deceives his neighbor, and no one speaks the truth; they have taught their tongue to speak lies; they weary themselves committing iniquity. Heaping oppression upon oppression, and deceit upon deceit, they refuse to know me, declares the Lord”. (Consequences: Loss of trust, broken relationships, loss of fellowship)
Jeremiah 12:6 “For even your brothers and the house of your father, even they have dealt treacherously with you; they are in full cry after you; do not believe them; though they speak friendly words to you.” (Consequences: Loss of trust, inability to know whether they speak truth)
We clearly see from Scripture that the consequences of being in the presence of a repeatedly destructive person may be that you no longer trust that person, you don’t want to be around him, you don’t want to be intimate with him, you can’t fellowship with him, you don’t believe what he says, and sadly if you don’t have those boundary’s, a consequence for you is that you may become more like him.
Understanding God’s law of consequences is not being uncharitable or unchristian. Rather it is being realistic, honest, and merciful, in the hopes that painful consequences will eventually bring the destructive person to his or her senses. Sadly, many destructive people continue to believe they are victims of other people’s unkindness rather than recognizing that they suffer negative outcomes because they have repeatedly made bad choices.
Friend, how do you determine when to put into place appropriate consequences with others who have been destructive or harmful towards you?
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Leslie, I am amazed that once again I had thought of a question to ask you…literally, about consequences…and here is the answer! You and your coaches are such witnesses to being open to Godly wisdom.
The concept of boundaries really summarizes my growth over the last several years: what I am, and am not, responsible for in my life. Yet each time I try to communicate this to my husband, along with the ideas of mutuality, reciprocity, and individual autonomy; and the need for emotional safety and security in marriage, I get argument and pushback from him.
I’ve wondered whether I should be specifying consequences to him, so he might “ get it”. But I’ve clearly said: “ I can’t feel or act close to you when I can’t safely share my thoughts and feelings with you.”
His response is always ( truly, always): “ you’re being unforgiving “, rather than any change, growth, or choosing to be responsible for his own choices or behaviors.
My further question at this time is, how do we know where the breaking point is?
( with apologies for length..)
A few days ago, when he was out of town, my husband texted me about a surprise bill from the auto repair shop ($3000.00), and that he had authorized a debit from our checking account. I had been waiting for a call from the repair shop to tell me what the problem with the car was; I expressed shock that the shop would charge us $3000.00 without letting me choose whether the repair was worth it ( I would have said No). I was frustrated with the repair shop’s actions; I didn’t say, imply, or infer anything that could have been a criticism toward my husband.
My husband’s response was to send me a selfie of his frowning face, and say:” I am traumatized by what you said. I feel deep shame, and that your life would have been better if you never met me. Goodbye.”
He has many times disappeared for a few days after I, or even one of our kids, said something that he didn’t agree with…even something as non – personal as a different viewpoint on current events.
Or he responds the way above…taking things that aren’t even about him as criticism that merits threats of suicidal ideation or contemplation of divorce.
I have suggested he see a therapist…but he insists that he “ already knows everything they would say.”
Effectively making not only feedback as in a normal relationship impossible, it makes even daily, normal conversations a minefield. I find myself listening to, supporting, encouraging, appreciating him…and I just don’t bother even sharing my thoughts with him any more. Hardly a reciprocal relationship…
He gets over it, sometimes even says “ sorry” ( not as an adult apology, but like a toddler: “ I said sorry, so now you can’t “ complain “ about my behavior!”)
Other days…recently a doctor finally saw through his responses, and told him he was drinking too much. He told me about their conversation, which was a surprise. Then he said, “ I drink too much because you…”, which wasn’t a surprise; his choices and behaviors are always “ my fault “.
But I am left shaking for days after one of these episodes. Scrolling for answers.
Wondering if this is the time to just say, “ I want a divorce “, even though these decades with him have left me years behind in career skills, and with serious health conditions ; in addition to having a child with severe medical needs; so I don’t know how I could manage financially. ( I’m trying to find a way.)
So circling back…When is the natural, logical consequence saying: I can’t pretend that we have a mutual, reciprocal relationship when I can’t safely share any thoughts or feelings with you, and when you refuse to be responsible for your own behaviors, growth, or happiness, and instead keep blaming me for your choices. ( all of which I’ve said before) I think we should divorce. ( which I haven’t said before)
He’s threatened divorce many times; I never have. At one point I said, “ ok”; that temporarily stopped the threats.
I’ve been “ managing” for financial reasons, trying to “ stay well”, in spite of everything…trying to create a self-sustaining business.
My question now:
How do I know whether expressing to him the consequences of his years-long behavior will be a benefit to me, to him, or to our relationship?
LWG, have you considered that your husband mat have a personality disorder? Most (all?) of what you’ve described sounds like the same tactics my husband uses with me. I struggled for years with blaming myself, choosing my words, waiting for the “right” time to make a comment or ask a question. Until someone who heard me describing his behavior said “That sounds like extreme immaturity”. Looking that up, I found that that was a classic symptom of Borderline Personality Disorder. The more I read up on BPD, the more I realized that that was what my husband had. Mind you, he has never had a formal diagnosis, but checks off EVERY single box for this disorder as I’ve seen and experienced over the years.
He would never acknowledge it of course, so I have never had the courage (or the inclination) to bring it up, but I cannot tell you *how much* peace it brought me when I finally realized there was a name for all the ways he was treating me and the children, and that * I *was not the reason everything was wrong in our marriage.
Reading up on BPD (closely linked to NPD), gave me insights as to how to deal with him and helped me stop “walking on eggshells”.
Thanks, Laura,
Yes, I have wondered if he has BPD or NPD. It’s really interesting that you noticed those characteristics. I think my husband does also “ check off” a number of the symptoms. Although since he won’t go to a mental health professional, I’m afraid that his patterns of thinking and behaviors will continue unchanged, and I’m not sure I can live with this forever.
Are there any books you would recommend, that helped you manage better?
I found this one very helpful:
Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder
By: Paul T. Mason and Randi Kreger
Will keep you in my prayers!
Thank you!
A book that opened my eyes greatly to destructive patterns is “It’s Not You,” by Ramani Durvasula – Identifying and healing from narcissistic people. Even if someone is unwilling to be diagnosed, there’s so much helpful information on how people with that tendency think and act. And on how to stop supplying their ego with ammunition to be turned against you.
Living in Grace, my ex-husband exhibited covert narcissist behaviors similar to what you explained above: blame-shifting (nothing is my fault, it’s everyone else’s fault), the inability to discuss anything due to his emotional immaturity which I pegged at about nine years old, raging, gaslighting, etc. etc. ad nauseum.
After doing many hours of research on covert narcissism, I decided to employ the gray rock method of not responding emotionally or verbally. I would be respectful when he spoke and just acknowledged that I heard him. “Oh, Okay” was my go to phrase. Because I finally realized that he was incapable of conducting a conversation. So I quit trying and focused on my work as Leslie says.
Telling him how I felt or what I needed or what he needed to do was just a black hole because he could not hear my voice. God told me to quit putting my hand out to my ex-husband, because he would pull me back into that pit of hell with him. God told me the only Hand that my ex-husband could reach for was Jesus and nobody else.
Post 3 years separated/divorced I live in Peace now. I live in community with healthy people and not toxic people. God has delivered me and continues to deliver and protect me and I am eternally grateful.
Julie, I’m so glad to hear you have succeeded in creating your healthy life! I appreciate your input.
Hi, you might find the book Should I Stay or Should I Go by Lundy Bancroft and Jac Patrissi helpful. It’s not a Christian book but Lundy Bancroft has been a therapist to abusive/destructive men for years and has a lot of insights into how they operate and the causes of why they behave the way they do. The first part of the book looks in depth about for main causes for men to be destructive in relationships and helps you to identify which is/are the case in your situation.
I also want to say how amazed I am by your resilience to stay with a man like that for so many years. I’ve just walked away from my husband of 4 years and he’s nothing like as bad as you describe! Praying that you find the right path for you. And for strength and opportunities opening up to you for greater freedom in whatever path that turns out to be xx
Thank you, Andrea. I’m not sure it was resilience so much as “ hopium” and misguided principles. Good for you for acting on your own behalf sooner, and stewarding yourself to your best life!
Thanks, though I nearly burnt out because my husband was so demanding of my time and emotional energy. I don’t have children (he does from previous relationships but they didn’t live with us) and haven’t been working due to health issues which are actually much better and I’d like to work but never had the energy or head space to do anything apart from care for my husband. Everything is about him and his feelings. Occasionally he’d say he wanted to hear my heart and he would never say I couldn’t do things, but he’d expect so much of me and I was just so worn
out by him that I didn’t have anything left to put into anything I wanted to do. It’s been 3 months now we’ve been separated and I’m starting to feel like myself again and doing things that bring me life. I’m even looking into starting my own etsy shop to sell patterns I’m designing (just did an online course in that), very early days and I’m also letting myself grieve the relationship too. It’s really tough but freedom is worth it.
Living in Grace, et al: thank you for the book recommendations. I have finally (26-1/2 years of marriage) decided to divorce, but I cannot actually file because I am the consistent worker for our family of 8. I am underemployed and have not been able to get a job that would support me and one minor child. I have have health issues brought on from years of stress and neglect of my health trying to keep it all together for my children. How do we ladies make this leap, without financial support (my husband just does gig work and spends on alcohol etc. and entertainment). Housing costs are so high! I am a slave to him spending the little I earn. How do I actually break free? Homelessness is the other option.
This message really hit home for me today! I just recently divorced because of unending lies and infidelity. He refused to acknowledge Jesus or God and was pulling me away from my purpose. Yet I still felt like I was supposed to stay married (guilt). Thank you for reminding me that this wasn’t in His plan for me and praise God He set me free!
In short, one of Dr. Phil’s main sayings is, “Never reward bad behaviour” . Each time we give any sort of emotional reaction or reasonable explanations, it’s a reward. My kids never threw more than one temper tantr or whined. I stepped over them and locked myself in the bathroom until they were done. I know, we think our husbands are all grown up now. Nah.
Beware of labelling this as any sort of disorder. That makes it sound like they can’t help i and brings out our nurturing side. Do they treat others that way? The only disorder they have is that of sin. Pride, intentional immaturity, entitlement, and a sick delight in seeing another suffer. In German that is Schadenfreude. The marriage licence, to them, says, “Legally I have trapped a torture victim to bully forever”. If we would just recognise that, we would stop getting sucked in.
You might check out Peter Salerno.
Putting a “label” to the disorder brought me a sense of relief. I spent years tying myself in knots trying to understand why he was the way he was, and how *I* “needed” to change/ adapt in order not to rock the boat. Once I realized what it was, it was like a huge weight off my shoulders!
And yes, he can be Mr. Charming outside the home. Classic Jekyll and Hyde, so no one believes he could be as terrible as I was making him out to be…
Connie and LauraF,
I appreciate both of your viewpoints.
On the one hand, learning about and understanding the concepts of NPD, emotional immaturity, the effects of childhood issues on adult choices, etc, helped me understand that I am not alone in my experience ( many people fall into these categories), and gives me some helpful information on how I can steward and protect myself, and live in my values, rather than wearing myself out trying to accommodate, please, fix, or placate my husband.
On the other hand, a therapist told me that one of the characteristics of Borderline Personality Disorder is that the person behaves the same volatile way toward everyone in their life. This is definitely not a description of my husband. His co- workers, all of our friends, most of the family, think he’s the greatest. One of my husband’s favorite responses to any feedback or expression of hurt caused by his actions is: “ that doesn’t sound like me.” And most people would agree.
Which is another crazy-making circumstance…and why classifying behaviors ( not as professionals, but as a way to understand) helps maintain my sanity: it truly “ isn’t me. It’s him.”
Another helpful resource I found is https://narcwise.com/2018/04/16/feeling-sorry-for-narcissist/
( narcwise.com).
The author makes a compelling argument that no one is forced to become or act as a narcissist; that many people who have difficult childhoods still become empathetic people; and that all adults have agency over their own behavior. Bad, anti-social behavior is a choice, not a disease.
All of which circles back to us moving on with our lives, stewarding, protecting, and caring for ourselves, regardless of the circumstances.😊❤️
Romans 16:13 talks about the greeting to Rufus and his mother. Is the reference above perhaps incorrect? Can you please clarify?
Oh , I see it is supposed to be Romans 16:17-18 (not v 13).
This is a great explanation of the difference between punishment and consequences. In my mind, I understand it, but this is very helpful for when we question what our response should be to someone’s bad behavior toward us. We’re not ‘doing’ anything TO them….they’re experiencing the result of their own actions regardless of how much they blame us or try to deflect responsibility.